Hungary’s Parliament secret hearings on organized crime, 2000

geschlossene Parlamentssitzung1

Office of the Parliament

General Secretariat

Commission Department

2857-11/2003-13.

Example 1.

60 sheets

OV/4-23/2000.

OVB/4-23/1998-2000.

EXTRACT

Notebook

the Parliament

between oil affairs and organized crime

of the investigative committee established to investigate possible corruption cases

Tuesday, November 7, 2000, 9 a.m.

the Investigative Investigation Office of the Budapest Chief Prosecutor’s Office,

Budapest, Belgrád raktpart building no. 5

of the closed meeting held

Prepared: based on TÜK-02857-11/2003-12.

-KÉBflJtJiS!

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Agenda:

l ^ ppfpl ^ retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Branch

interrogation of the chief investigator

2. Others

Chaired by:

László Pallag (FKGP), chairman of the committee

Minute takers:

ayne

fan of Judit and Erika Vicai

(‘Aa

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I see you!

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Meeting participants

On behalf of the Subcommittee:

László Pallag (FKGP), chairman of the committee

Dr. Sándor Fazekas (Fidesz)

Ilona Vígh (Fidesz)

Károly Tóth (MSZP)

István Pancza (FKGP)

Dr. Mária Kóródi (SZDSZ)

Laszlo Balogh (MDF)

Dr. Csaba Lentner (MIÉP)

He gave a replacement assignment:

Dr. Lajos Dorkota (Fidesz) to Dr. Sándor Fazekas (Fidesz)

Dr. Pál Vastagh (MSZP) to Károly Tóth (MSZP)

After the departure of Ilona Vígh (Fidesz) to László Balogh (MDF)

Experts:

Dr. Attila Karakas

Gyula Kenyeres

Dr. Gézán Kocsmár

Zsolt Nagy

Dr. Andras Gyekiczki

Permanent participants:

•

Dr. Judit Cserháti, Deputy Head of the Commission Department

Invited:

Dr. Kornélia Bíró (General Prosecutor’s Office)

Dr. László Hegedűs, attorney

Christmas Carols escort

István Sándor is a retired police lieutenant colonel, former Central Crime Investigation Directorate

chief investigator

Sidi Laszlo escort

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(Meeting starts at 9:28 a.m.)

LÁSZLÓ G (FKGP), chairman of the committee, hereinafter CHAIRMAN: Dear

I greet everyone with a warm welcome. We will begin today’s extraordinary external committee meeting.

Committee agenda for retired police lieutenant colonel István Sándor, Central

the hearing of his former chief investigator. I salute him ~~

&F“

;

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CHAIRMAN:

I will repeat to István Sándor what we are requesting the information about. The information

After the presentation, my fellow members will ask questions. The original intention of the committee was to

to request information about organized crime, what experiences have been gained

corruption, oil-related issues and criminal activity, and what steps

actions were taken to eliminate and eliminate this. These questions were raised in the

colleagues who attended the committee meeting. I ask that you provide what you know in comparison to this

to say, tell me. I will give the floor to István Sándor.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Please, you must know that from 1989, that is, 1990

I was present as a founder when the organized crime service was established. The initial

During this period, we tried to organize the organized crime of Budapest and the country into some kind of system.

to book, to map with smaller or larger results.

In the meantime, he was assigned to the drug investigation department of the National Police Headquarters as

I became a team leader, mainly dealing with international reconnaissance.

In the second half of 1996 – late autumn – when the so-called explosive

and showdown cases, transferred from the narcotics department to a special group, brigade, the

to the field of investigating explosive cases.

This was done because, as a drug detection team leader, he had a large number of

We had an informant system, so we had access to a wide range of information.

In the initial stages of the investigation, we concluded that the

The so-called bombing and showdown cases are based on oil, and it is the oil that

It started in the early nineties, around ’92, with the so-called oil colonels’ case. So

oil trade was realized, compared to MOL, which was in a monopoly position, approximately

There were suddenly thousands of small oil entrepreneurs in the country, who were able to exploit the then incomplete laws.

^using them, various oil companies were created.

At the beginning of 93-94, oil bleaching began, the customs duty deferral and oil bleaching were initiated

, ip _°laj appeared in Hungary, where there is a significant difference between diesel and heating oil

^difference appeared, it was almost double the profit gained on HTO compared to the price of HTO. This is very

gave people, especially petty criminals, the idea to start using oil

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to deal with, which practically brought great benefit to everyone. There is no evidence to support this

It was better to see that small-time pickpockets, car thieves, and petty criminals formed gangs, first

they settled on those already operating oil people who already had experience

in a short time in the distribution and trade of oil, first they were terrorized, then

They defended and eventually took away the oil fields and oil bases.

A very good example here is the Kiskőrös oil field in Pest county, which is owned by a certain person.

was in his possession. Initially, they attacked from several directions, defended it, and then in the end, their own

They took over the area, evicting it from its ownership, and began an independent oil trade.

At that time we didn’t really get into these stories, but in the course of our work

we couldn’t avoid this information either. We gave several signals to our superiors, the

police and so on, that it would be a good idea to do something because more and more new rich people are becoming

in the country, mainly around Budapest, and in Csongrád and Bács-Kiskun counties, who are

They make a huge profit from oil.

At that time, we also repeatedly indicated that the oil industry, mainly consisting of criminals,

groups formed to help the customs guard, because it is essential that they

the control operation of this area was over, and it was likely that the customs guard

with his lenient actions or silence, more serious things happened, so the state

they will gain serious capital by cheating.

They’re eliminating the customs deferrals… Oh, I’d like that for the customs deferrals too?

to say that if the Customs Guard had paid even a little attention to the fact that those persons

who obtain an operating or business license for the purpose of customs-deferred and other

to continue oil activities, they would have verified the person with a photograph, the photocopied,

photo and data from an ID card, say through a registry, which

If it hadn’t taken any time, then the cost could have been reduced by about a quarter.

number of oil-related crimes committed.

Because what’s happening? What’s really happening is that they’ve bought pipers, people on the side of the road

for a few thousand forints, whose ID card was taken, their ID card contains the

photo was exchanged, and then a third person with that ID card, who was also

He didn’t know who the ID card belonged to, he got an operating license – this is for trade

was also typical at that time – and he was already an oil distributor and trader. You should know that

that the customs deferral was manifested with a deadline of 15 and 30 days. In practice, the 15 or 30

about 10-20 trucks of oil from Yugoslavia and Slovakia, and Russia, per day

could be brought in without having to pay taxes, duties, or anything, because by the time

should have been paid, the fictitious person who obtained this operating license disappeared. This

person went with another ID card, had another permit made, basically it’s like this

continued to circulate. Horrible sums of money were generated from this, there was a day when the rumor

According to them, they earned 5-6 million per person, so one person in such a ten-person brigade. But

let’s just say this is not that story.

So, in effect, the state artificially created or left these loopholes,

legislation and other legal background and lack of experience, in my opinion. Marked

was there, nothing was done about it. Then the so-called painting began, from which automatically

oil bleaching has come. Here again the role of the customs guard should be brought up, because no one should say that

that as much oil as was stolen, so-called bleached oil or unbleached oil, was returned to the

could be done without any tacit consent from the customs authorities. Because the initial

During this period, we had information that these so-called dyes were not even

were placed in the tanks and wagons, the amount of fuel was delivered in this way, because on the scene

and there was no difference in quality between diesel and HTO.

When were customs officers forced to include these dyes?

put, then – there are a lot of smart people in our small country – the chemists of Veszprém county

one of them invented or figured out the chemical substance that can perfectly neutralize the

What do you see?

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coloring agent added to diesel fuel, and what’s more, its quality is also somehow affected

improved it because it also reduced the sulfur content in the oil. This also brought in a huge amount of money

within certain underworld circles. This should not be imagined as the whole country doing this.

does it, because those who become stronger in terms of capital increasingly push the small fish out of the circle, and

They are trying to subdue the small oilmen or completely destroy them.

Then we were given the task of trying to create some kind of information system.

to regroup to the oil companies, because at the end of ’96 the time will come when the supply will be so limited

oil opportunity due to bleaching and other problems that certain people are excluded from the circle, and

there are those who want even more. But on one side, a capital of such magnitude is accumulating,

which he can’t really do anything about, so he tries to use the money he earns from oil

to turn around the so-called Budapest night, in trade, the hospitality industry and

in other legal production sites.

The so-called explosion story begins in the fall of ’96, the essence of which is not

was not about actually killing anyone, but just showing off and trying to

to draw the other side’s attention to who is stronger.

The sad and unfortunate incident begins when on November 1st or 2nd

József Prisztás is shot dead in Óbuda. It is important to know about Prisztás that he is involved in oil and other underworld activities.

He had a good share in the circles. He was already a financier who had a large

invested money in various businesses, but mainly in oil. In Prisztás’s original story, he did not

We must not forget the role of András Lakatos, who everyone considers to be the master of the underworld.

banker. He was not a banker of the underworld, but I could compare him to Zsolt Nógrádi, who was a

He was a sucker who was pushed forward – good looking, good speaking – and he played that role.

role, that he is the treasurer of the underworld. To establish a pension fund – and let me not list, up

what was it about – he borrowed different and large sums of money from different people to invest in oil

rotate it, into other gems and more.

Then came the time when, in some form, the Kiss Bandi distributed

a large sum of money disappeared. There were several variations here: Bandika either took it, or it could be this one, or that one

It could be here. Bandika didn’t take it. Bandika left the country with about 8-10 thousand marks.

We had accurate information from Bandika’s surroundings, as one of the key

We had some level of contact with this man. The disappearance of Bandika is therefore doubtful, because this

The person next to him tried to create a situation through police contacts,

which to the outside world seemed to us as if the police were looking for Bandike. This story

they couldn’t implement it because they couldn’t find a police group or patrol that could do it

would have done it as a favor to Bandika or Bandika’s relatives that the Újpest newspaper appeared

around the apartment, and he draws a few circles there, as if Bandika needs to clean up because the police are looking for him.

The police were not looking for Bandika at this time, no one was looking for him. The point is one: Bandika

At that time he represented the interests of the so-called conticaros group, he was in league with them, there

it was day and night.

What we cannot prove – neither I nor anyone else – is that this huge amount of money, more

billion forints that flowed into Conticar actually disappeared because of fake diamonds, or

ePpen the group that runs him pocketed it and turned it over for their own benefit. In this way

we did not have information

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In March 1997, on higher orders, it was decided to create a special

.group, which will investigate oil cases and the so-called bombing cases

This special group is actually part of the ORFK, the KBI investigation department.

-operating, was established under the leadership of the special cases investigation department. For us, the scouts

This case was assigned a subordinate role, so we were unable to take any independent action.

It had to be carried out according to the instructions of the head of the investigation department or the head of the investigation department.

to act.

In April 1997, we reached the point where the investigation into the oil scandal began.

.capture of persons. I will never forget: General Ignácz was the Director General of Criminal Affairs, who

on a Friday at half past three, he is struggling and agonizing over the fact that there will be a ministerial meeting on Tuesday, and even

we didn’t catch anyone in the oil business. I told him it didn’t matter because

there are practically people who play a big role in these

in stories and who are driving this whole thing.

That same afternoon, a person was arrested, taken into custody, and subsequently

People were being arrested one after another every week or two. So far, everything has been going well.

Okay, fine, but somewhere we didn’t quite get in sync with the work of the investigation department,

Or at least I didn’t agree, which is why I later got mine in the process – the

to this day. Because I saw that the theory and standards set by the examination department were not

j^onos with what the reconnaissance was defined and set as a goal. In vain did he bring together the

tons of information, material, if no one in the world was interested in it – because no one

em was curious about it. The investigation was his own idea and I don’t know under what instructions

He is very good at his work, so much so that in the meantime I have already informed Mr. Tonhauser that

be ren| l ek |A ^ !18em would be exempt from this group because my nervous system is not up to it

^ Ve> l10®^ we go day and night, and our work is a waste of time and money, because no one

What do we find out or what do we bring together? So there is a connection between the two organizations.

Unrelenting hostilities took place.

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In November 1997 there was a meeting – which was held every week – and already

For the umpteenth time, the head of the investigation department starts by saying that this cannot be carried out.

task. I was so fed up with this that I got up from the meeting and left:

I say, well, then there’s no point in it all if we’re not trying to do it at least once

I don’t hear how this task should be carried out. This makes me feel

hostility towards them intensified.

The point is that we continue our activities, then only the investigation will be carried out.

according to the instructions of the department, but we still found that it was of no significance

there is none, because the piles of papers accumulated, which were later confirmed to be overwhelming

most of it is true, but the investigation did not use it. So there was no one within the police leadership

a unified will on what actually needs to be done, how it needs to be done, and how it needs to be moved forward

case.

Then we approached the ’98 elections, which left a big mark on the

on police morale, because then the leaders who had the authority to make decisions had somehow already agreed to it, that is,

they downplayed the whole thing. You could feel the impact of the ’98 election coming up – who

Who wins, who doesn’t win – this can only be a problem.

It’s better if we do nothing, it won’t be a problem. Because now it’s coming,

During these explorations, in addition to a lot of oil, certain political factors

have surfaced. It cannot be kept quiet, no matter how much it hurts the government, please, it was

a so-called Monon Ltd., which has a very large oil trade, illegal oil trade

was carried out, the owner of which was a person named Béla Tóth, who was then and

He is currently appearing as a certain important person in Fidesz. Although he himself does not

he hid it, so he threatened us several times that if Fidesz wins, he will

we will be trampled. It happened. So the person was not wrong.

This was the company, Monon, which then split up, but he was always the god, the

Tóth, It was practically the Monon that – this is also evident from the minutes – practically

produced the fictitious invoices, did not actually sell oil; used oil jargon

they covered up the cases, so they produced the papers for the non-existent moving oil. From this

small and large companies were formed, they joined, they forged, etc. The point is that the

They created a fake company, Fortus Kft., alongside Monon, by forging an existing company.

under the name of a Fidesz member from Keszthely named Zsolt Zsiga, who was at the local OTP or Takarékszövetkezet

opened an account through. The gist of it was that this number was a laundry. At that time

There was never any money in the account, there was never any money on it, this can be documented.

find in the cases that are in the ORFK investigation. On this fortune account, the various

Money received through a dead end was passed through and legalized.

During the investigations, we came across several mononos and other business people who

Some of them, as perpetrators, also cooperated with the police. What happened to these

people? Those who admitted their guilt but cooperated with the police were released in a short time

The investigation department arrests everyone inside. However, the investigation department did not arrest people who

investigation department, like Béla Tóth, to whom Brigadier General Ernő Kiss gave instructions three times

to the head of the investigation department that this man must be arrested. So whoever

He cooperated with the police in the investigation, and within a month or two, the pik-pak was crushed,

ntajd was subsequently released. By this I interpreted that the man who did commit that

32 oily stories or abuse, but he thinks he made a mistake and tries to uncover the

things in some form and cooperates with the police in further investigation,

practically the police, in a certain circle the investigation puts them in the sink, so that

so that he can’t continue talking; or why is he talking if it’s not important.

Returning to the Monon. As I recall, during the reconnaissance and investigation

I understand that there are two former managing directors who have fallen quite far, existentially and financially.

people, they die in the meantime, as a result of an accident, right, because it is a state administrative procedure

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these cases were settled within the framework of. But whether there was really an accident or whether it really

were they beaten to death or what happened to these people, no one asked, no one followed up,

because in my opinion it was forbidden for everyone back in ’98… So it really came from

balance position, to idealize, to stand there, the leaders didn’t know where to go, they preferred not to stand there

ophnvá: state administration, done, with one person or two people less.

Unfortunately, I still haven’t left my truth or our truth, the reconnaissance in Tolyáman

Together with László Tőnhauser, we tried to find our own truth, but in vain. Even that must be done.

I have to say that our work was betrayed by many people within the police, so the intelligence

work. This was eventually sorted out with more or less success: a certain lieutenant, who

The RSZVSZ caught him at the BRFK, then an ORFK lieutenant colonel, whom we brought down,

and during the technical inspection and wiretapping of a company, it was revealed that the Pest County

Deputy Chief of Police for Criminal Affairs and Head of the Organized Crime Division,

who are involved in investigating oil matters, will release all information in detail to the

called Conticar…

CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, I have a suggestion. Or in any case we will hear names…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Okay, then I’ll tell you.

CHAIRMAN: Because a name was mentioned here in one case, when Fidesz…

ALEXANDER

There was a board of directors

headquarters… (Dr. Sándor Fazekas: There is nothing surprising in this, obviously the only

It was an oil company.)

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Chief Investigator: Yes, please, I say, Pest County Police

CHAIRMAN: Let me finish, because I have written down the sentences one by one that

No names were mentioned behind it.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: For example?

CHAIRMAN: I will ask about that.

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Where I did not say names, for example, that they died, I did not

I know their names, but you can look up who they were. I know nicknames.

CHAIRMAN: A nickname is also a name, because there is a person behind it. Not only the deceased

It’s not about the names of the police, the leaders, the others, the people who gave the orders.

It was mentioned earlier who the police officers were who leaked the information here.

We also want to tell you the names.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Good. Please. Police officers giving instructions: László Gyolnai

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Head of the Special Cases Investigation Department of the ORFK Investigation Department

was the head of the ORFK’s investigation department at the time. Police Colonel István Mikó was the head of the investigation department of the ORFK at the time.

(László Balogh: And what did they do?) They practically directed the entire investigation,

mmmm

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They were the ones in charge of the investigation. Among them was Colonel Tonhauser, who was the chief investigator.

He was the manager, we were his subordinates.

CHAIRMAN: What was said earlier, I apologize for interrupting, was that there were

police officers who leaked information about the scouts. (István Sándor: So

there is. – László Balogh: Were they the ones you named?)

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: No, no. It wasn’t them. (László Balogh. I’m telling you,

(To clarify.) Those who played it off; I can’t remember the name of the BRFK lieutenant, no

I know the name of the lieutenant who was the system administrator of the computer system.

took out the secret materials.

CHAIRMAN: Is this such important information?

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: His name was Antal. (Dr. Mária Kóródi: They are

judging, it’s not worth it now… – László Balogh: Sorry, it’s important that the

two police leaders that Mr. Sándor just spoke about, then they are not in my reading

they played a negative role.) No.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): So the two people you mentioned afterwards…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired police officer

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: They were the ones who directed the investigation.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): So they were not traitors, so they played a positive role.

they played.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired police officer

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: That’s right, yes.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): This had to be clarified because it was misunderstanding.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired police officer

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Then there was Lieutenant Colonel Elek Kátai of the BRFK Life Protection, who

right at that ominous capture in Kecskemét, when we seized the machine guns and

hand grenades, he was the one who handled this case, so he informed the

Conticar group, which was later proven by the RSZVSZ to have really betrayed this

the action and other actions, so Conticamak worked. But at that time he was no longer a BRFK member,

but the person was an ORFK member when he committed this betrayal.

Returning to the other two things, the Pest County Chief’s Deputy for Criminal Affairs Horváth

András was a colonel, and the former head of the organized crime department was Ernő Tóth.

^Colonel, regarding whom during the technical inspection… Because the Margaret Island

technically

The Conticar group had its headquarters in Thermal Hotel.

‘for the purpose of obtaining information. Based on the information obtained there, it became clear that

András Horváth and Ernő Tóth are connected to the conticaros group, as László Radnai, the

-The head of the Conticar group was in official contact with the Pest County Police Headquarters,

^was originally a brick factory. In this context, therefore, the information about them or related to them

^formations went back to them, which is what the technical inspection revealed, so István Mikó

office, which

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and Colonel László Tonhauser prepared a police report, which he handed over to Ignácz

^General, who was the Director General of Criminal Investigation, who decided to arrest these two people,

He bans András Horváth and Ernő Tóth from the Directorate General of Criminal Investigation and from meetings. This

embesr was disbanded from the board within a short time, although nothing happened to them. No

nothing to do with them.

Let’s go back in time a little, so between the reconnaissance and the investigation,

We were still in a negative light from a contrasting situation.

Meanwhile, there was also a Boros story, when Tamás József Boros turned to the police,

to Pest County, that they shot at his apartment and tried to kill him, and then from Pest County

The case was taken to the ORFK, and unfortunately for me, the ORFK organized crime unit

Ian was given the task of keeping in touch with Boros and of responding to any

I have a connection, I should forward it to Colonel Tonhauser. I think this has become my profession or my

I’m done writing because I retired early.

Boros made several public and private confessions in which he was accused

lcus, police chiefs and others. How much of this had a basis in reality, how much

I said it then, and I say it now, that the words spoken by Boros

had a lot of basis in reality. I dare say that he was a criminal himself

at a low level, as he made his fortune from crime. After the change of regime

“|za from Germany because he had previously left the country due to a common law crime

Good.

Regarding TA Boros – which everyone writes on my account, I don’t know why –

^my role was not as significant as many people make it out to be, because in reality I had

and his person was a necessary evil, a daily job. Boros is very big and

He had a lot of connections with the police. He didn’t have the same connections with them as I did,

not in an official relationship, because for me his person was a forced situation, but

ji and had close dinner relationships with those who were practically close to power

I can’t name them all, but you had to see that

Boros moved around, he had access to every police station, he was welcomed everywhere, in the end he

pnki said that Boros is a brick. I wouldn’t call him a brick, but in his situation

could not do anything due to price changes, he chose the option of

He gives information to a noble in exchange for his person being protected.

$ The perception that Boros was washed away and saved by the police is wrong because Boros

We worked as hard as anyone else during the reconnaissance because we knew that

He doesn’t earn his millions, his hundreds of thousands, in a fair way either. That the police have Boros in their hands

– It wasn’t like that, please. Boros was just as much a criminal as the rest of us.

The Boros knew very well how far he could go, how far he could go. So when

came into contact with, did not commit the crime in a way that could be detected or

Let’s go.

The other: Boros’s surroundings were quite crowded with all kinds of people, so

was better informed than us because he gave us information that

during the course of the experiment, that I myself was surprised, who should have known about this

-ation. That Boros got a bodyguard from the police – that wasn’t my idea either.

^ vok But I emphasize: you must know that within this body I have the

It was a mistake because I had no authority. My job was to

1 ° ^ – that Pista Jóská must be identified, discovered, or information must be obtained about him

fces.I did this with my people, or I did it myself. You can read about it in the newspaper,

I had the power to do this or that or not to do it. There was no

1 T em nicely. I was an executive soldier despite the fact that

I had a drink.

MSP

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Many people have ridden the things related to Boros, many have blown it up, and the whole thing

,y “a rowed underworld story that started quasi against Tonhauser and against me and a couple more

against the deep, it comes from the stories presented by Boros. Sándor Pintér himself

.the Minister of State also told General Ernő Kiss that he actually resented me for

Tonhauser couldn’t have figured out this whole Boros story or oil case on his own.

I beg you! That I am Tonhauser’s subordinate and I have to deal with Boros.

To erase the connection, why does Pintér or anyone think that Tonhauser would have been incapable?

or professionally to solve certain things on your own?

Please, from the depths of things, a lineup has emerged, cutting edge or not

[doni, how should I call it, where some people

we have become a cry for the leaders of the oil mafia

This was partly due to the so-called RSZVSZ, which carried out reconnaissance and defense

He was acting against us, or for our safety, as they called it.

‘ he saw that we were appearing among various underworld figures in a series, so

We are together. Our task was not to mess with these circles.

but let’s create a connection and get as much, as in-depth information as possible

Let’s talk about oil and other crimes.

» The point is that we could not have established these relationships even

gVSZ, nor anyone else, what kind of relationships these are. Many people don’t even know

. they say that we are police officers. Especially not in Budapest, but in various parts of the country

We worked in the big cities, at the forefront. This led to us being labeled as criminals.

dream despite the fact that in January or February 1980 a “C” type inspection

J ® nt r Í # 1′,v U,lasan za-Ílott Ie towards me. We were never criminals, neither I nor the

fflfluiff .^laws

gtaft-va-xinl pn ^tunk.

you are

fS..*ii ,.

. jf ■

ssfóAaftí •

U, —

the

Top secret!

U iu u iU L j ^ uit , uiiuy

József László Nárai, in another case, who1

I dare to say this because in ’97 there is a catch:

i«wi luiiiafa uu i.

man – or in ’98,

is trying to persuade him/her

I don’t know anymore.

plea bargain, that it doesn’t matter what, just tell me

testimony against me, and

prices – this on a broker

then they will release him from the case he is in. And he says

I know through it – that he can’t say anything even if you offer him anything. The

After the conversation, he tells Nárai that László Radnai would like to talk to him and

welcomes you. That is László Radnai, who is the head of the Conticar group, and which is László Radnai

This József Nárai previously gave incriminating testimony on ORFK, stating that he was commissioned by Radnai

He was in Slovakia, ordering oil from the Conticar company.

The story still doesn’t end here. They’ve been coming in steadily since January of this year.

messengers or couriers – call them whatever you want – from László Radnai, that /

They want to sit down with me and discuss it. I replied that we have nothing to discuss because ?

I really thought there was nothing to talk about. I was wrong. I’ll be down there in August of this year.

with cájjpom on Lake Balaton at the end of a week where I can’t avoid a meeting Ferencsik

With Attila, who is a director of Energol Rt., one of the so-called big oil companies

The meeting was initiated by Ferencsik and took place at János Pálocska’s summer house,

where I was spending my weekend and cooking. Ferencsik either on August 12th or 13th –

I don’t know if it was Saturday or Sunday, I don’t remember the time – he appears, and

We had a three-hour meeting, where Pálocska was present, I was present, and

the rest of your squad, who were moving around me.

Let’s compromise. I’ll tell you what.

The essence of the meeting, I’m telling you literally, is this: Ferencsik tells me: Fater, I’m glad,

You bet, and we can sit down. You are a victim in this whole story, that’s it.

Everyone here knows this too. We don’t want to escalate the situation, we don’t want anything bad to happen to you.

What are you talking about, Laci?

Let’s sit down.

Should we compromise? He says they believe, they believed, and they still believe.

They claim that Tonhauser and I were the ones who started the oil business. In fact, they targeted Tonhauser.

and on the field that he must be destroyed because he ruined them, but since he did not contribute to

They have access to it, so I, as their number one man, could be a target, and they started targeting me.

in the press, in the prosecutor’s office, to torpedo and denounce, to denounce. But he also says that the

their action was unsuccessful because they did not achieve the result they expected, therefore

;

There would be peace, I wouldn’t press, I wouldn’t tear the wounds against Conticar, Energol, they

They will take care of the dirt that has been collected against me so far at the investigative office or

0 > the # is sorted out with a stroke of the pen. But it’s not just him who says this, but Radnai’s every

makes it a condition, let’s sit down to discuss, and with a stroke of the pen, all kinds of procedures

They are going to stop me. I tell him, Attila, this is not how it works, it cannot be done innocently,

to bring to justice, to shut up. Now I see that it is. When Attila tells me,

please, the prosecutor of the investigation office, that little guy with the red glasses – he couldn’t

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

From Tamil

Top secret!

.^say his name, I say, the Túri – you yourself said that it doesn’t matter how many false witnesses f

we bring, many geese beat pigs, I can’t do anything against them anyway, and in this case

No one has been prosecuted for perjury in the country in the last ten years. This

says Attila, whom I will ask to be heard during the proceedings.

Please. The point is that this Attila also said: the investigation office Radnai

It’s in László’s hand or pocket. I don’t doubt it for a minute after what’s happening to me.

now. Because please, I have never committed any crime, I am so

I am sitting in prison now, innocent, as any of you could be under these conditions, Íjiert

They will catch 3-4 people who will confess, it’s okay if it’s not true, but they will confess and they will screw them over,

they are being locked up after 28 years of police service. What is this, please, if not the complete integration of the mafia

into the judiciary? They no longer insult, they tease; they control the prosecutor’s office, and

this

^ let me not list any more

I would list further. AJJJJ timak J^ BMP ^ al is vhája-van, so between each other eg^

anger and a circus ensues because he comes to his defense ^ mm ^ This matter…

DR. KORNÉLIA BIRO (General Prosecutor’s Office):

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Board of Directors: Here you go?

DR. JUDGE KORNÉLIA (General Prosecutor’s Office):|

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

; Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Yes..

t –

DR. JUDGE KORNÉLIA (General Prosecutor’s Office). I

CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, we are in closed session. Actually, in closed session…

Jj;.

!’Í’

:|f

|i;.i

DR. KORNÉLIA BÍRÓ (General Prosecutor’s Office): My task is to ensure that the investigation

p –

in relation to that

to arrive after the

The Criminal Procedure Act does not allow free contact between the arrested person and the suspect.

ffweek to persons other than his/her protector.

information other

not to be aware of

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former chief investigator of the llgátó: That’s why I’m being locked up innocently, because the information is classified

i. What makes my case secret? The investigation that is being conducted against me is secret. It is secret, but not

Why? Please, I am the victim of a trumped-up lawsuit based on fabricated charges.

jjpk, and this is the best way to prove that the state administration, the prosecutor’s office and the

§ | eats from the same plate and is not controlled by the prosecutor’s office, but by prominent figures in the underworld,

Attila Ferencsik is a drinker, and let me not list any more… Then there is nothing to talk about

Ili-:

CHAIRMAN: This is a closed session, please continue.

ISTVÁN retired

||ANDOR

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the ip a g: The present example is my case, please, I am sitting so innocent,

^which one of them could sit where I am, because I have done nothing. Nothing in the

penunit!

Ife; ■ ■- ■

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

Please write.

from the protection service of the organs

beautifully,

I have it.

] M í $ P

Top secret!

circus.

and

;<1

subject to open police action, such as measures to

they steal your car, they seize it, they put it in a bank, they obstruct your work, customs guards, various

|H-inspectors, all kinds of things they can use to molest or harass you ^ But this is so

to report

It’s unfortunate that they make a person impossible. Then it appeared

^s ^ ^ | ^ P ^ kg | | HM f P | | for abuse of office, in several forums

Finally, the case and the report are sent to the investigative office, where nothing else, m in tflB

this case, according to my information, who has an angry relationship ■ ■

so it is clear what the outcome of the case is in such a case,

someone who is the leader of the underworld or one of the main leaders of organized crime circles

by the investigative agency, the man who is an insignificant figure because neither

He cannot be an underworld personality, either physically, in terms of attitude or circumstances, because

l | i is, but the enemy of two men endowed with such power, who make him an underworld

He made a fez. He made an underworld leader.

I would like to continue with the oil issues here, because there is also an explosion issue, that is…

||the bomb factory case, which I also think is of interest to the committee. The bomb factory case,

^Unfortunately, the investigation into the so-called Dietmar Clodo case also started with me, I would rather not have started it

After the initial phase, another branch of service took over, so its reconnaissance

I didn’t end up in the cage. That’s not the point. Parliament is in session at that time.

the investigation of the National Security Committee, where the relationship between Mr. Pintér and Mr. Clodo is being investigated

The committee should find out what happened between the two of them.

■

Please, the questioning of Leonid Kolcsinszki – Clodo’s accomplice – by the ORFK will continue next.

y in the investigation department, when lawyer Mr. Bánáti, the interpreter, Tihamér Szalai and even

one or two investigators. The interrogation begins. At one point Kolczynski says that this

I don’t want to put this part in the minutes, but the video is going on, with my camera.

1 they take the whole interrogation. This Mr. Kolcsinszki tells me, please, I Pintér

I have carried out several orders for the general. The air freezes, but he no longer explains that

What kind of assignment? The interrogation stops, lawyer Bánáti resigns.

This interrogation material, the video material, as far as I know, is being avoided by András Túri – then

even to the group leader prosecutor, he avoids law enforcement agencies, and when the

committee meeting, about this tape, which would have been crucial in the committee’s work, the

in clarifying the commission members, the prosecutor is silent, the law enforcement is silent, the

everyone. What is this if not abetment to crime or abuse of office? I didn’t mention this.

at that time, gentlemen, stop the torchlight procession. I have said many things, and

That’s why I’m under arrest here now.

Also, about law enforcement agencies: in ’97, during the secret reconnaissance, we come across a

To a person from the oil company in Békés, Csongrád and Bács-Kiskun counties, with whom he manages to

we have to agree – this man is György Góman – that within the framework of a secret interrogation

Ignác Bánfi, a resident of Hódmezővásárhely, tells us about the video recording

stories about oil and other crimes committed by his associates. Preview

based on the investigation and with the consent of other leaders, we will go down to Siófok, listen to Gyuri, present

there is Tihamér Szalai from the investigation, and Péter Kerekes from the economic protection department

Lieutenant Colonel, as well as myself, a colleague, Tibor Balogh, and the head of the Siófok branch,

Major László Nagy. A protocol of approximately 10-15 pages is created, in parallel with this

The video recording is awesome.

This man says during his interrogation that please – not now.

I defend criminals, but it’s part of the story – why Ferencsik and Drobilics and their associates are being

are in prison for armed robbery, which they did not commit, because with which the Drobilics

they are defending themselves, they actually committed it, so that they stole the company’s excise license,

« &

Oh!!

Top secret!

was forged and acted on behalf of LLO Rt. In addition, he also says that the

Gánfi and his companions in Békés, Csongrád, ^ács-Kisku$ba and various places in the region

how they stole the oil and how they cheated people

-■with oil- At the same time, during the secret interrogation, he hands over stamps, account blocks and other

official papers to prove that what he says is true. (Ilona Vígh

leaves the committee meeting. – László Balogh: I will replace lloba Vígh.)

i ViáSzaérltelünl^ from Siófok I will report on the testing the next day, together with the finished clays.

to the leader, Mr. Gyollai. He says that there is not enough material, let’s go down again. A

The interrogation will be repeated within a week, supplemented with what he asked for. The gist of it is,

The video and the secretly created protocols – there are a lot of crimes involved.

I asked that these crimes be brought either through a plea bargain or otherwise.

to the surface, because there is a reference here to Fortus, Monon and many other limited companies, Energol,

with which the invoices are made, because these also had no oil, they were just paper.

‘

Please, they said that this case cannot be made live because then

the prestige of the police would be ruined, because the confession contained therein, which supports

under the pretext that Drobilics and Ferencsik and I don’t know yet who their companions were, were not following a robbery

when the person concerned, the opponent, is kidnapped, but a self-judgment, because in fact it is his

another company commits the crime by misusing their papers, and they are later kidnapped. This is not

could not be made public, but rather they allowed it – well, criminal, not criminal, but the

criminals also have the right – to sue the Drobilics for committing a robbery

the case should be referred to the Pécs City Court for a proposal to prosecute. This is how the proceedings proceeded, and then

During the trial, the court found out that it was indeed self-inflicted injury and not robbery.

But please, if a police leadership approaches a case like this, saying that it is innocent

sends people – not innocent, but not for the crime they are sent to – to court to

prove to people what they have done, but which actually increases the prestige of the police,

or does not increase, then what do we expect from the judiciary?

The other is why the police are compensating for the actions taken by György Góman.

does not take a position on the testimony, the minutes and other matters, and does not initiate proceedings against

against criminals, but rather puts them in desk drawers so as not to damage the authority of the police

through such a story. I ask: why?

Of course, from then on, we became the bad guys again, we reported the

investigation by the general, we report it here, we report it there, so we disagree.

In fact, the police had no interest in anything other than their own prestige. Only their own little prestige.

cherishes.

The other: why is it, please, that this investigation has been going on for almost three years, and

Aren’t they still at the end? They won’t be at the end, because after all this time they’ll die,

they’re going to ruin – so I just can’t understand what happened.

The thing is, I believe that organized crime is not only knocking on the door,

aJtón, but has been there for a long time, integrated into the judiciary, the police and other

into public authorities. It should be known that where there is money nowadays, there is power. This is demonstrated by several living examples

And it proves in life that money can solve many things, money can achieve many things.

You can do something about it. That’s all I wanted to say. Ask me!

CHAIRMAN: Thank you for the information. I ask the members of the committee to ask their questions.

put it up.

KÁROLY TÓTH (MSZP): Couldn’t we take a five-minute break? Just so that a

We’re letting air into this cramped room. (The committee members nod in agreement)

CHAIRMAN: I will adjourn for five minutes.

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

(Break: 1 1 .2 7 -1 1 .4 3 hours)

CHAIRMAN: Dear Committee! We will continue the committee meeting. Representative Tóth had a

proposal at the end of the committee meeting to request the tape that is in the possession of the prosecutor’s office

there is so that the committee can receive it.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: It is not certain that the prosecution has it.

CHAIRMAN: That was the information. Who supports this? And the minutes that were prepared

in this regard, the committee will receive it. (Dr. Sándor Fazekas: The documents of the case

ask the committee. Leonid Kolchinsky, who was interviewed.) Leonid Kolchinsky, ’98

The interrogation took place in June in the ORFK building on Vörösmarty Street in Budapest, Szalai

In the presence of Police Lieutenant Tihamér, lawyer János Bánfi, who resigned in the meantime,

representation… (István Sándor: He resigned with immediate effect.) And a video recording was made, this is the

cassette that was not included in the National Security Committee meeting when it was being investigated

these cases. (Dr. Sándor Fazekas: We request the documents of the case, including a cassette,

everything is in it.) Yes.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: That’s how they ended the interrogation; it was quite a big deal

headlessness.

CHAIRMAN: Dear Committee! Then the questions will follow. Representative Balogh!

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Thank you very much. I suggest that one by one

Let’s ask a question, and then it will be more lively, so whoever has more questions can ask one by one.

put it up.

I am asking whether you have come across the name Gyula Éles during your activities.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: With whom?

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Gyula Éles.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

former chief investigator of the Directorate: I haven’t met him.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Because you mentioned the case of the oil colonels…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

former chief investigator of the Department of Justice: Yes, but I haven’t come across his name. The

And I mentioned the 01 colonels because when we started rolling up the oil,

We practically knew that this had already begun within the Armed Forces.

0tyiúhat, and at that time it was already in the judicial department.

LÁSZLÓ JPBALOGH (MDF): I only ask because today’s case in the case of Gyula Éles

It was a trial, and he was the civilian defendant alongside the military defendants. So you are not

^ ^ pott with that name.

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

lampshade.*

Top secret!

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I did not come across this name, but the name of Colonel Tanics

I met Colonel Tanics, or more precisely, György Góman, whose secret protocol

and his video material was not used, I think he is talking about Colonel Tanics and his

on related matters, about a military colonel.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Thank you very much.

CHAIRMAN: Representative Lentner!

DR. CSABA LENTNER (M3EP): I would like to ask you, what was Flaisz like at the time?

Against Ferenc, a Bács-Kiskun county entrepreneur

According to my information, you are investigating,

data collection was carried out; Ferenc Flaisz was in pretrial detention for ten months. What is his reason for this?

Wasn’t he convicted, wasn’t he condemned?

f’-

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I did not directly work with Flais,

that was done by the economic protection department, it followed a separate economic line. That Flaisz did not become

condemned, they could not condemn; somewhere in the mazes of truth a grain of sand might have gotten in

‘ I think so, but I’m saying I haven’t looked into it specifically.

CHAIRMAN: Mr. Fazekas, Representative!

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): I have several questions, I will take them one by one

to eat. The first is that you mentioned that the state manufactured and left the

loopholes for oil bleaching. What period do you mean by this statement?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

police lieutenant colonel,

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

“^Former Chief Investigator of the Office: Please, I understand this for the customs deferred period.

CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, I have a suggestion. If the questions are related,

“If the question is one, then it should not be divided.”

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): This is just a lonely question.

CHAIRMAN: The representative may ask several questions at once, if not, then go ahead.

Per person.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): This was a solitary question. So I look forward to the

ISTVÁN retired

ALEXANDER

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of Goodness: It was practically during the time of the customs deferrals when false

fictitious persons were able to establish companies that were

they received the excise license without any problems, and in those two weeks, in a month, they sold as much

They came illegally and tax-free to import as much as they wanted, and they paid no taxes.

they disappeared after a month. So if the condition had been tightened,

The excise license, i.e. the entrepreneur’s license, can be issued at the customs office.

permit, so you present your ID card, they check it, and the customs office doesn’t do anything.

yes

Top secret!

given photo is the same or not. It would have been reduced by about three-quarters

The number of abuses against GR, if they could have solved this.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): Thank you.

CHAIRMAN: Representative Tóth!

KÁROLY TÓTH (MSZP): Before the question, a sentence about yesterday’s meeting, that it is understandable

The key question of yesterday’s hearing was whether it is true that in a differentiated manner

They persecuted criminals in Hungary. This was one of the key questions of yesterday’s hearing.

I’m telling you because you obviously don’t know about it.

Based on what you said, I would like to ask the following. Is it likely that

that Conticar and Energol – at least according to the Pest County Police Headquarters and some other

by the senior police officer – he was in some kind of privileged position all along, usually always found

Does it provide some kind of relative protection in the management of their affairs? Are you aware that in ’97 and early ’98

except that anyone in this group has been permanently convicted for a long period of time, or

would it have been in ammunition? After all, the only time I’ve encountered it so far was when in ’97 and the first half of ’98

Again in August ’98

are

retreats. Is my reading correct?

under arrest, and everyone from Csikós to Drovicsek

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I would practically not know anything about Energol

to say, but in relation to Conticar it is clear that László Radnai’s official relationship

to the police, in Hungarian brick. This also assumes that I think, not

He went to jail because he was such a nice guy. Probably in exchange for information.

may have enjoyed some kind of formulaic protection, discount or immunity. It is important to know that

that informants in serious cases who provided information had very difficult

in accessible cases, in certain respects I am not saying that they are crimes

were forgiven, but in smaller matters they were not subjected to the same judgment as the

mere mortals.

During the technical inspection, it was proven that Conticar has actually always been –

so in the period I know, when I started working in the organized crime unit in ’96

part – on the one hand, it was a particularly privileged company because of the appropriate connections. I say,

that it still enjoys this trust, because the same key figures are still in the

They belong to their network of contacts, two of whom are currently advisors to the Minister of the Interior. The

one was András Horváth, former deputy chief of staff, the other was Lieutenant Colonel Ernő Tóth. Things like that

which they dare to do, I think it is unlikely that without the appropriate power background

they would dare to undertake.

KÁROLY TÓTH (MSZP): Excuse me, I was just saying this because it is related. The same

Ernő Tóth accidentally organizes Pintér’s meeting – I’m not even saying this as a question, I’m just…

factually – with Clodo.

ALEXANDER

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: That’s right! The same Ernő Tóth brings together László Jusz

Clodo with his wife.

ISTVÁN retired

KÁROLY TÓTH (MSZP): I just wanted to point this out because – it’s not really a question,

it’s just related – I see a relatively precise meeting point here.

Top secret!

I see you!

Top secret!

CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Representative Fazekas!

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): I would like to ask –

here are some

that according to them Monon Ltd. was the company you mentioned

a related question follows

It was the only one, apart from three or four companies, that dealt with oil matters.

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: No. It was only Monon that opened a procedure and investigation

we dealt with it at length within the framework of which it was practically one of the largest Energol and

next to Conticar.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): It was mentioned by a Fidesz politician named Béla Tóth

name. (István Sándor: That’s right.) I would like to record for the record that I see that

that the person being interviewed is either underinformed or is deliberately providing inaccurate information.

Béla Tóth was never a politician, he was never a member of Fidesz.

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Please, I didn’t say he was a politician!

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): He just said that when I asked. (Dr.

Mária Kóródi: That’s not what he said.) I just asked him at this moment if he was a politician.

Bela Toth…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: No, then there is some misunderstanding here.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): I just asked this.

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Sir, don’t be angry, I didn’t say that Béla Tóth

was a politician.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): It is described here that previously, alongside oil workers,

politicians also surfaced: M onon Kft., Béla Tóth.

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I said something wrong then, but I didn’t claim that

that Béla Tóth was a politician.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): I accept that you correct what

I may have worded it incorrectly earlier. I consider it necessary in the minutes

to state that there is no Fidesz politician in this. By the way, Fidesz had no

He has no connection with him, and he has never been a Fidesz member. I should add that…

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Wait a minute, Mr. Representative, let’s stop for a moment! I didn’t do this.

I claim it, but he claims it about himself, because when Béla Tóth came to me – I forgot this

to say, while we’re at it, he tells his colleagues what we’re up to, the

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

His company provides cover companies for the secret services in Germany. So he provides

He presents himself as a Fidesz man, I’m not making that claim, sir. I’m not making that claim.

CHAIRMAN: This was stated earlier in the minutes.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): It is conceivable, but someone saying their own

something about yourself, you obviously don’t have to accept it.

ALEXANDER

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I don’t argue about this, I don’t want to, because it’s not me

I claim, but that’s what he says.

ISTVÁN retired

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): Okay, then please record this as such.

You claim that Béla Tóth could not be arrested, even though there were several attempts to do so.

(István Sándor: Please, this was not an attempt.) I understand that he was arrested.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired police officer

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Wait a minute, Béla Tóth was not arrested in this case

in the oil business. Brigadier General Ernő Kiss, to my knowledge, has been involved at least three or four times

gave instructions to the head of the investigation department that Béla Tóth should be taken into custody. Béla Tóth

never once taken into custody.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): I still know that he was arrested, and

he was released sometime in ’98.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

policeman

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former chief investigator of the Directorate: Béla Tóth? I don’t know about him.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): I ask that this be included in the minutes.

So Béla Tóth was arrested and released in ’98. (István Sándor: I don’t

I know about it.) The prosecutor’s office can obviously provide information on this.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

policeman

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former chief investigator of the Directorate: László Kovács from Monon was arrested.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): I would like to ask the following. The politicians

Among other things, he mentioned Béla Tóth as an example in connection with political connections.

companies about other politicians who invested money in oil matters or used oil in some way

Were they in a relationship? Can you give me some examples by name?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Please, I can give examples by name, but I don’t know

to prove it. Because in Kiss Bandi’s environment, the name of Sándor Csintalan is heard every day.

I know this from the oil people, but no one has given their name to testify.

about this.

policeman

DR SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): And the name of someone else?

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: The one who played directly for me was naughty.

Law enforcement officer

Top secret!

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): I would like to ask whether Monon Ltd.

when was it founded and how did you find out that capitalist partners were involved?

in the background.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I don’t know when the company was founded or not.

I know, it wasn’t my job to determine that. My job was to

I received from the investigation, to find out what this Monon Ltd. is, and the X., Y. in it.

I was to find a person, gather information about him. That was my task.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): The names of MSZP politicians in Monon Kft. are not

did it show up?

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: No. I just have to say again that the composition of the limited liability company,

I don’t know his/her identity. I was given specific information that I needed to know.

I had to work. So I didn’t examine the entire life and history of the company. I did the subtask

I carried out the reconnaissance.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): Thank you very much. Those who were his superiors,

Has there been any case where specific information was withheld or evidence was hidden?

in recent years? Has there been any such thing specifically with regard to police leaders?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: What I could practically call information interception is

the planned secret interrogation of György Góman, which was recorded in minutes and on video,

which I believe contained criminally important information that should not have been

you can just put it in the drawer.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): On the relationship between Energol and ETL Rt.

Is there any information? What can be known about this?

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: This is my information about the connection between ETL and Energol

It is true that it was practically ETL that supplied Energol with the most so-called spindle oil.

and delivered extra gasoline.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): The members of the Supervisory Board…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

former chief investigator of the Directorate: I don’t know, because I wasn’t interested in that direction.

I always carried out a specific task. Who the head of the company is, what its composition is, I never

I wasn’t interested. I got a piece of information, information, and I went with it. For me, it’s always

| I had to explore this specifically, purposefully.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS

(Fidesz): You have never done any operational work,

It is conceivable that a company could be investigated without someone knowing who the

head donors…

I’m sorry.

Top secret!

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Board of Directors: Wait a minute! I wasn’t investigating the company, one more time

I mean, I was investigating a specific person.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): Thank you. I have another question.

CHAIRMAN: Here you go, Madam Representative!

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): Thank you very much. If I understood correctly, and this

I’m sure I understood correctly, and you also said that your task is practically a reconnaissance task.

(István Sándor: That’s right!) So this reconnaissance task is for cases that are already under investigation,

or was it generally about the criminal world, I don’t understand exactly, so

I would like to know…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I know, yes.

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): I would like to continue, because this is just for information purposes.

I had a question.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Please, we had a so-called screening research project in

in so-called organized crime circles, which was not targeted. There was the other special

our work, which is already in the open against the unknown perpetrator in connection with a crime that has already occurred

or it was conducted in parallel with the open investigation. Our task was to ensure that the investigation, i.e. the

We should work under an open investigation and investigation, and provide them with information.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): So there are obviously specific instructions in these

received. From whom?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: We always received direct orders, or from Colonel Tonhauser

or from Lieutenant Colonel László Gyolnai, head of the investigation department, or Ernő Kiss

from brigadier generals.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): So those three could have given you instructions?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Yes.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): Couldn’t someone else have given you instructions?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: No.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): And he reported to them too.

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

The former chief investigator of the investigation: That’s right.

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

iR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): Thank you very much. You said that in fact for a long time

dealt with this oil issue, but in ’96, when…

J | ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Bureau of Investigation: In the second half of ’96, because until then I was in the narcotics department

I was sleeping.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): Until then, she was working with the drug department. Then

The conclusions you have drawn regarding deferred duty payment are as follows:

retroactive conclusions?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: That’s right, based on the information obtained.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): Regarding the oil explosions, the specific

My question would be, if I knew who was opposing each other in the settlement cases,

so who were the warring parties, who were they, because if I understand correctly, by then

In Fez, another division had to be made within the market, so they declared war on each other.

1) criminal groups. I would like to know who these belligerents were and how they stood

in a power struggle with each other. So who were they against each other? I guess this is like

had to be reviewed by a scout.

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Please, here are practically the opposing

Among the parties, it was the so-called Conticar group that took the lead, as they were the

the most powerful, the richest, they got the most money from the oil, they wanted the

so-called downtown entertainment venues

arcades and more

This was where he went peacefully, where they sought out the owner and he himself handed it over.

or associated with them, but there were places where they encountered resistance, and there came the so-called

grenade throwing. Not a single grenade throwing was aimed at human life, but all of them were such a warning and

aimed at intimidation.

overwhelming

part of,

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): What you are saying is not about the shelling parties, but

^about someone who wanted to occupy an area that was not otherwise at war. This is not the same. If

^there are showdowns against each other, then there is someone on both sides. What I am now

says, one side says, Conticart…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Wait a minute. Not one side, it’s one-sided. I have

I have money, I have power, I want to get it, I’ll put up Nirvana, or whatever

entertainment venue, any unit, so he doesn’t want to give it to me or sell it, no

wants to withdraw from there. What happens? I will send my enforcement brigade, who will either crush the

^order…

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): I accept this, but then it is not a showdown.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel,

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

■Former chief investigator of the Sázgatóság: I’m not talking about a showdown.

Top secret!

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): But then what is the showdown with the oil explosions?

during the season?

ALEXANDER

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: The showdown? When they execute the Priest, they execute the

Wine…

ISTVÁN retired

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): So Conticar was then opposed to Prisztás?

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: This is quite complicated, so it would not be possible to draw a line as to whether the

Conticar stood against him because there were Russians, Ukrainians, Arabs in the background who were

were practically interested in oil. Because Prisztás made a mistake that

when he felt that his money had been lost at Conticar, he invested in Conticar’s existing assets

put his hand on it, and this harmed the interests of other interest groups, whose interests also slipped away

his money.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): I would be interested in how these interest groups

they stood opposite each other, do you know or want to say anything about this, because it is not mandatory

of course, I’m just asking. Is it possible? Of course, you are free to decide what

tell me what you want to talk about.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I would like to live longer.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): Thank you very much. And then the next one

I would like to ask one more question.

CHAIRMAN: Representative Balogh!

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH

from his colleague

I asked at the public meeting, I will also ask you, what did our committee do before this?

Have you met any of its members, or do you know Mr. Nógrádi, and have you met?

nicely. All

(MDF): Thank you.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I met Mr. Pallag twice, I don’t know Mr. Nógrádi.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.

CHAIRMAN: I would like to inform the committee that at the beginning of the committee’s work

István Sándor applied to be an expert, which did not materialize. (Dr. Mária Kóródi: About this

the committee decided.)

Here you go, Mr. Representative!

DR. CSABA LENTNER (MIEP): I would like to ask Mr. Sándor:

Did you have any suspicions about the police leadership in Öács-Kiskun County that

things are not going well. Specifically asked: what do you attribute to Dr. István Molnár, Dr.

István Pélvölgyi and Dr. Zoltán Balogh, county police chiefs, and Kiskőrös police captain

their removal from the board. They were removed, did you feel any retaliation for that?

from the heart

Top secret!

I’m rambling!

Top secret!

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: In practice, I have no personal contact with these police leaders.

We were not involved, but law enforcement agencies, but since we moved around the area quite a lot,

we worked, several unverified rumors and information could be heard about them, that they were involved

to certain oil companies, and that’s why they were removed from their positions. Nothing specific,

because it wasn’t our job to work for the police.

DR. CSABA LENTNER (MIEP): Thank you. One more short question. The Siófok

law enforcement service, so this service against organized crime was abolished after ’98

I asked Mr. Pintér why yesterday, and he said that it was

tourism does not occur all year round. Now I will ask you very specifically

that this is obviously a Siófok thing, an outsourced department that not only focuses on tourism, but also

he also checked the oilers, had them checked. I suspect that this is actually Somogy,

The monitoring and the burden of oil criminals concentrated in the Fejér and Veszprém counties

What specific oil circles do you know from this region that are receiving attention?

distracted:

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: You can’t break this down into oily and non-oily. That’s why

you need to know that Somogy county, Zala county are quite infected. In fact, the fact that

they justify that tourism is not tourism; there the then branch manager

In my opinion, he did a pretty good job, he was a lifeguard boy who did a lot of

achieved results in anti-life and other violent cases in the area. How oily it is now

companies or non-oil companies, I don’t know,

because in reality we were just guest workers there, passing through from time to time. But the fact that

It was abolished with the reference to tourism, it is not kosher.

DR. CSABA LENTNER (MIEP): Thank you very much.

CHAIRMAN: Mr. Fazekas, Representative!

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): Thank you, Mr. President. I would like to ask,

.that you were in contact with Tamás Boros, and such information and data were gathered that

|Péter Boross pretended to be the son of Prime Minister or former Prime Minister…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

|former chief investigator of the police: Please, this is true, that’s why Boros has been arrested several times

||fya. Not in our time, that is, when it came into contact with us, but this

For a year or two, Boros had the habit of, for example, in Csongrád county,

He appeared in the area of Győr and Szeged with an accomplice named László Sas, quite

Equipped with slots and other things, and everywhere he pretended to be Boross

||» and with this he gained many positional advantages in certain businesses. Therefore, several times

yes, but at this time there were no people who would have admitted that Boros was abusing

|||ter, Boross was the Minister of the Interior, this story took place at that time.

SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): Thank you. I just want the

p in order to record that there were such rumors here at that time, that

involved in various oil cases. There were such rumors, and then it is likely that

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: It is 1000% certain that it is Tamás or József Boros, completely

It doesn’t matter, he abused the Péter Boross thing.

CHAIRMAN: Representative Tóth!

KÁROLY TÓTH (MSZP): Then let’s stay on this topic, Boros. Boros

His testimony not only has this economic space-gaining aspect, but also a political one. Surely

knows. (István Sándor: Yes.) In politics, Tamás Boros says that there needs to be a

series of bombings at the end of ’97 and the beginning of ’98 – he says at the very end of ’96, at the beginning of ’97 – to have a

bad public mood, so that there is no politics. Has this section been investigated? If only because

because on the tape, Tamás Boros gives quite specific names of who the police officers are

they organize where these police officers are located.

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Maybe the ORFK special investigator at the time should be asked this

from the investigation department, because they conducted all kinds of open investigations, we only did the secret ones

we conducted reconnaissance.

KÁROLY TÓTH (MSZP): My other question is whether any

information about why the bombings stopped in the spring or early summer of ’98

In Hungary?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I can’t answer that.

KÁROLY TÓTH (MSZP): Thank you.

CHAIRMAN: Mr. Fazekas, Representative!

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): You mentioned Mr. Bódis, and I apologize if I may have

I fell behind in taking notes and paying attention. Mr. Bódis was a policeman, I understand his name?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel,

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: He used to be a police officer, yes.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): During this period, in ’97, he was a police officer.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel,

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: No. He was a private citizen.

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): He was a citizen – I understand.

this is how it was transferred to

from the police to the prosecutor’s office?

ALEXANDER

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: During this period – which I am talking about – he was a police officer

an informant, and one day this man will become an investigating prosecutor.

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel,

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): So he used to be a police officer.

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: He was a police officer, yes.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): The rules made it possible for someone who

police officer – his service relationship and employment have already ended – and he is available for recruitment afterwards

changed.

ALEXANDER

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Detective of the Directorate: Wait a minute! He wasn’t an enlisted agent, probably a

bad and occasional informant, which does not involve recruitment.

ISTVÁN retired

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): I understand. Thank you very much, that’s what I meant clearly.

to see.

CHAIRMAN: Mária Kóródi!

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): Thank you very much. Obviously for the reconnaissance work

Special methods belong. I think that in some way with those groups,

for whom the reconnaissance is being conducted, a relationship of trust must be built in some way,

which makes this detection work. I don’t want to list these methods here.

I would like to ask how you think it can be seen, or how it can be proven, that

these detection methods operated under sufficient guarantees, can it be proven at all

something like that?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: In practice, it is about establishing a relationship of trust with

with criminals, it doesn’t work like that, because you don’t have to establish a relationship of trust with the criminal, but

A person with potential information should be included in the defined criminal circle

we can find someone we can recruit one way or another, practically on our side

translate and deliver the information we are interested in within the group, within a company

to us. We couldn’t give any guarantees here, especially recently – now it’s ’98

I’m talking about the period from the middle of the 20th century, because I retired since then. Because certain police

leaders, in the interest of an open procedure, one by one, gave up and revealed our informants, so it became open

♦they ate, they pushed it to the side.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): In your opinion, what role did Energol Rt. play in the

in oil crime?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: In practice, Energol Rt. was a determining factor in

oil market, and was able to grow to be the largest, selling the most oil. This was due to

from the fact that it was capital-strong, and in fact it was a company from Miskolc called ETL, which was very

provided a lot of raw materials.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): No other role than an economic one

attribute?

ALEXANDER

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: In fact, during that period, there was such a huge economic

There was no role to speak of because this rapid enrichment occurred on an ad hoc basis, so

ISTVÁN retired

Top secret!

there was nothing conscious behind it, whether it was supported by economic experts or not

It would be elaborate. The story was a success, practically the oil was flowing through the pipe.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): Investigated or worked with Energol Rt.

in a relationship?

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Yes.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): And it didn’t surprise him that a former BM member was on the

in leadership?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: No. I can honestly say that nothing surprised me,

because Energol Rt. itself is connected to one of our large IT companies.

They formed this company at some point, and that’s how it went public.

DR MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): Did you know Mr. Csikós?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I did not know Mr. Csikós, I do not know who he is. (Dr. Kóródi

M a ria: Thank you very much.) I’m not surprised by anything these days.

CHAIRMAN: Representative Balogh!

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Thank you very much. As an operational worker, what

What crimes did you commit against groups? When a relationship is established,

something is done for a reason. How did this technique work for you? How long did it take?

Was it possible to leave? Was this a give-and-take situation?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: If you think about the benefits we gave you

informants, unfortunately this was very slim, there was almost no possibility of this. Those

we tried to find people who are walking on the periphery of the case and, let’s say, financially

they were available for purchase, so we bought the information. These are people whose big

It didn’t come out of the pot.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): So no crime was condoned…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Impossible! The law did not allow this.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Thank you very much.

CHAIRMAN: When there was information buying, that’s what they paid for. How did that happen?

I would be interested in documenting this.

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: If we bought information from anyone, it was practically a trigger

had to report to the commander, in this case Tonhauser, to suggest that information

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

we want to buy, why we want to buy the information, and what the price of the information is. The

approved the purchase of information, and the payment was made afterwards, so that if the given information is

It brought and realized the result attached to it – that is, what the story was about.

CHAIRMAN: So there had to be a result for the informant to get the

money.

ALEXANDER

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: In every way. What was the limit of the amount of money?

the director general, the head of department and the chief captain could decide.

ISTVÁN retired

police lieutenant colonel,

CHAIRMAN: I would like to ask about the limits. What were the limits?

ALEXANDER

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

Former chief investigator of the Directorate: There were times when they paid 1 million forints – these are not ours

We were, but I know about it.

ISTVÁN retired

police lieutenant colonel,

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): What amount did you usually pay out?

ALEXANDER

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I have no information in this case, drug dealer

I know on the line where there was a hundred thousand forints.

ISTVÁN retired

police lieutenant colonel,

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): What magnitudes can we talk about then?

ALEXANDER

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: It depends on what the information was. You could have given a million,

one and a half million.

ISTVÁN retired

police lieutenant colonel,

CHAIRMAN: Let me ask a few questions. During his presentation, the

from an oil field. Who owned it?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former chief investigator of the Directorate: István Móricz or János – I don’t know exactly.

CHAIRMAN: You used the term “certain underworld circles”. Please elaborate,

who these underworld circles are. They should be named.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: When the first attacks hit the Kiskőrös settlement, the

Russians and in fact Portik Tamás and the Russians associated with him are the ones who are attacking

Móricz. Then they will defend Móricz, and later they will take over the settlement from him.

CHAIRMAN: But it was obviously not an underworld circle, but rather underworld circles. These

would you list it?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former chief investigator of the Directorate: Yes, there was a group in Cegléd – I don’t know what Imre’s

I can’t remember, but there was some Imre in a group in Cegléd who was fighting with the Turks.

He added Móricz. Sometimes he defended him, sometimes he didn’t. It was a double-bridge solution. There were times when the

T Ö ftt S k !

Top secret!

The gangs agreed that now I will attack, you will defend, and so it went in order. Practically

This way the boys could make it impossible for the owner to be on one side or the other, and then

they divided the money among themselves.

CHAIRMAN: At that time, they also acquired the empire.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

policeman

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: That’s right!

CHAIRMAN: There was also a phrase used, “oil kings.” Who are these oil kings?

Please list these in more detail.

ALEXANDER

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former chief investigator of the Directorate: László Csont, Jóska Koncz, were practically in Bács-Kiskun

who were great. There was Móricz, there were the Energolos, the Conticaros.

ISTVÁN retired

policeman

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): Maybe by name?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

policeman

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I’m talking about companies. They weren’t individuals, they were companies.

So it’s not Pista, Jóska, but X. companies, the biggest ones.

CHAIRMAN: Were there any company owners or managers involved, were their names in the public consciousness?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

policeman

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Never actually, just the company names. The company names.

CHAIRMAN: Here you go, Representative Tóth!

KÁROLY TÓTH (MSZP): I have no questions, I just want to say that the president

Mr. and Mr. Fazekas, that it would help us a lot if we contributed to it,

that, knowing the company map, the representative of the chief prosecutor occasionally announces those

the names of the owners who were asked. You asked at Monon whether there were any MSZP members among them,

feel free to answer it. Here you know exactly who the owners of Energol are, you

they made this map. I think every member of the committee will take note if

He occasionally interrupts and tells us the names we asked about from the wrong place.

CHAIRMAN: Here you go, Representative Lentner!

DR. CSABA LENTNER (MIEP): I would like to ask whether the ORFK’s top

the movements of police leaders, and their possible contact with oil criminals, you

Have you noticed, if so, who are these specific ORFK, BRFK leaders, or county leaders?

maybe.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Practically those who had something to do with the oilmen, Elek Kátai,

whom we also brought down along the way. Whoever came into our picture and worked together, it is certain,

that he failed.

TM Ú ti > b 6 !

Top secret!

DR. CSABA LENTNER (MIEP): There was no such thing among senior police leaders

person who might not have failed?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Actually, it was not our job to conduct police checks.

For us, if it just happened and came in from several directions, then it was, but not then.

We didn’t do it, but we passed it on to law enforcement.

DR. CSABA LENTNER (MIEP): The name of Tamás Portik came up here. The name of Tamás Portik

also plays a role in another oil company, in the case of Shukrán Lilla Kft., this specific case

Did you investigate? It’s a three billion customs VAT fraud.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Shukrán Lilla was practically the company that started it

during prehistoric times.

DR. CSABA LENTNER (MIEP): It was founded in ’94, in May ’94…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

police lieutenant colonel,

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Let’s take a look at this company, Shukrán Lilla has several owners

was also there, so there were several companies with that name at the time.

DR. CSABA LENTNER (MIEP): It was founded in May ’94.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: That’s when Nagykőrös will practically start.

DR. CSABA LENTNER (MIEP): Yes. Then I would ask why the Abony settlement

They closed it down, there was some kind of mafia war going on in the background…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I don’t know the Abony camp. I don’t know.

DR. CSABA LENTNER (MIEP): I would say some limited liability companies, large oil limited liability companies

Did you have any public debt, or were there any investigations against managers or owners? Pócskai

Ltd., don’t you know? (István Sándor: no.) Card Ltd. (István Sándor. No.) I’ll tell you now

one: Transenergo Kft., so there is no “1” at the end. Don’t you even know this company?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: No. These could have been small companies, I just…

DR. CSABA LENTNER (MIEP): Based on public debt, they are not that small…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: There were thousands of these oil companies. The one who was decisive.

DR. CSABA LENTNER (MIÉP): Last: D&M Kft. Don’t you know? (István Sándor:

No.) Thank you very much.

CHAIRMAN: Here you go, Representative Fazekas!

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State secret!

Top secret!

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS

(Fidesz): We have touched on Energol, ETL several times

connection, or rather group, that this was one of the largest such oil companies.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Yes.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): Just for the record, I would like to say,

that when I asked him, but he didn’t remember that he was a member of the ETL supervisory board

Former Hungarian Socialist Party (MSZP) MP Imre Kari…

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Yes, I heard about it.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): And what did you hear about him?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired police officer

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Board: That he is one of the important people of this oil company.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): He was later the Secretary of State for Energy. Lajos Lippai

Have you heard of the MSZP representative?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired police officer

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: No. I heard about Mr. Kari.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): Erik Szűcs, member of the MSZP national executive committee

Head of the economic working group?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired police officer

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: No.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): I understand, thank you.

ALEXANDER

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Actually, when it was ETL’s turn, I was already

I was on the Clodo case and retired shortly after.

ISTVÁN retired police officer

CHAIRMAN: Here you go, Madam Representative!

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): I would like to ask, is this obviously the

The entire reconnaissance work was carried out using secret service tools, and throughout the entire reconnaissance series

Did you have to cooperate with the secret services or was this not necessary, and if so,

they accidentally bumped into each other, so what happened, did this even arise as a problem?

how it appears.

And I would like to ask one more thing, are you here for some IT company?

He hinted at whether he might know something about it.

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

former chief investigator of the Directorate: I understand that either the Military Security Office or the

Energol was previously owned by military intelligence.

M SF!

Top secret!

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): What does this mean before? Excuse me,

I interrupt.

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Board: Before the Portiks entered this company. (Interlude: This

When was it, could you tell me?) I don’t have any exact information about this, just a guess.

meanwhile… (Interjection.) In any case before…. I don’t know when it was formed

Energol Rt. Energol Rt., the period before the Portiks entered. I don’t know.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): Excuse me.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel,

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

Former Chief of Investigation Directorate: Now to your question, Secret Service. It wasn’t necessary,

to involve them in anything, because the secret reconnaissance was carried out by the secret services, so

they were able to get all the information without us knowing about it, so all the

wiretapping, whether it was the phone, the apartment, the technology, whatever, it all went into the NBH building, they

They recorded it, they wrote it, they gave us what they wanted, ladies and gentlemen.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): So in a given case they worked in parallel.

ALEXANDER

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: We did not work in parallel, we could have worked in parallel

also…

ISTVÁN retired

police lieutenant colonel,

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): But they could work…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: We worked, it was a gendarme affair, what

We were obligated, they weren’t, so we had to provide data…

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): I would like to ask about cases where

when politicians got involved in such deals, not consciously, but accidentally, it was about these…

whether he has encountered such a thing. Yesterday we just heard from Mr. János Homoki, and the question is,

how much was that on his part…

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I’ll tell you. There were two occasions when I worked with politicians.

A related signal came, one was Zsolt Lányi, the other was György Atyánszky, who was from the Váci

I don’t know which bar he usually appears in, in whose company, I don’t know.

I don’t know, but I think this bar was owned by László Vizoviczki, who was connected to the

These were the two people about whom a note was made at that time and which was handed over

to the right place.

DR. CSABA LENTNER (MIÉP): How old was this?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

former chief investigator of the Directorate: Sometime before the elections, late ’97, early ’98.

CHAIRMAN: Here you go, Mr. Representative!

TORTURED!

State secret!

Top secret!

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Mr. President! Thank you. You mentioned that they mapped

%they tried to map the bombings and their background. And could they have been in the background

companies, I’m thinking of Conticar, and while we’re at it, I meant Radnai to be the

I- He was the owner of Conticar…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: that’s true.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): And also Ernő Tóth’s agent.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: That’s true.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Was Radnai pardoned for any crime?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

r Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I couldn’t say that, we were a separate company. A

they certainly had an advantage. I dare say this because during our reconnaissance we came across

on a line that in Taksony – I can’t tell you the street or house number anymore – there is a

15 firearms possession permits were issued to the address by the Pest County Police

from the headquarters. So a pistol.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Where can the documents of your work related to this be found?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Either destroyed or already in the archives.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): But where?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: At the ORFK, the legal successor of the KBI, because it is important to know that

When the reorganization and the changing of the guard took place, a lot of files traveled and left.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Thank you.

CHAIRMAN: The question may seem repetitive, but for the sake of better understanding:

What is your basis for the statement that the mafia is integrating into the police? And who are those police officers?

We’ve already heard a few names – who are the representatives of this?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Why do I say that the mafia is integrating into the police?

If we look closely, practically the current so-called nouveau riche or new bigwigs

entrepreneurs grew out of the 1980s’ pickpockets and similar petty criminals

themselves. In their hands are various large stores, commercial units, companies,

In Hungarian, money is concentrated there.

You have to watch a weekend party or champagne dinner to see who is in it, who is out of it.

It’s made up of. Let’s say there’s a chief captain or a department head, or God forbid,

a criminal department head or the life protection department head or whoever. So where

these pranks are happening, it’s not the ordinary people there, but the so-called

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Top secret!

people who have emerged from the underworld and become white-collar criminals, who find it easy to find

everyone and organize various champagne dinners. As a result, without

anyone would notice, surround the police leadership or the judiciary, and as a friendly gesture

They spy on small favors, so they can make things and people impossible. Those who

I named them, I dared to name them because it is proven. I don’t want to tell anyone

to cause inconvenience by having partial information about how it is connected,

or it’s not related, because I could be wrong.

DR. CSABA LENTNER (MIEP): Those – excuse me for interrupting, Mr. Chairman – you

What percentage of all those you know are named?

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Not much, two or three percent. Go and see,

go all over the country – I have traveled the country – in every city, in every

At the headquarters, you have to look at who the key people, the big people, are friends with, who

Whose friend is who, who goes to eat, have dinner, go fishing, hunt with whom. Hunting is the best

story: the criminal, the minister, the politician in a group, with a cup of coffee, at a lunch – there

big things are decided on hunting and fishing trips. You have to see how many

politician hunts, which hunting company he is in, and who else is in that company?

in a hunting company.

CHAIRMAN: I would also like to ask about foreign mafia groups. Do you have any information about them?

that these foreign groups were behind the oil affairs here, and certain

circles active in oil matters? (Dr. Csaba Leníner leaves the committee meeting.)

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Please, by all means…

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): When does the voting begin? (Interjections: Five o’clock

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: It is necessary to know by all means that the Hungarian underworld and the

The development of organized crime was greatly aided by the

border traffic. The so-called Hungarian underworld: at that time we couldn’t really talk

from the underworld, not even now, because the Hungarian criminal circle is not an organization. Everyone is king,

everyone wants to be the boss, and that’s why they couldn’t put together a cohesive team. That’s why it was

is that the so-called professional criminals who came from Ukraine, Romania and other countries

or Afghan fighters who had military discipline and other things, these

They embraced the groups and financiers, supported them with force, and what’s more, they even gave them a system.

They also provided these people with theoretical things for their brains.

so they had the opportunity to have Zoltán Seres – or I could list several such people – in the

From nothing, from a janitor, he claims that x area or entertainment venue in Budapest is his

be it in defense or whatever – or even on Lake Balaton. He was able to do this by

next to it stood a serious Russian or any foreign base that was not afraid of anyone,

from nothing, he considered himself an outlaw because he had done the wrong thing, on a train or in a car

sat down and left the country.

In the nineties – ’96, ’97, ’98 – these Hungarian companies were so capitalized

they were convinced that they really didn’t need these Russian, Arab and

Turkish forces, they became pregnant, because these people were working somewhere for crumbs

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1 *

Top secret!

for a while. They saw what kind of money was circulating, and it wasn’t crumbs anymore, but a lot of it.

They wanted to ask for slices of the cake, which was already becoming unpleasant for the Hungarian criminal. They tried

to get rid of each other, which is practically partly responsible for the emergence of gang warfare

led because one team was crashing into the other, trying to attack each other. The foreigner

His major role was to create the opportunity for the Hungarian underworld to make money,

accumulate capital.

CHAIRMAN: I would be interested in the role of the police in these issues, as well as the police

the role of leaders, their actions and activities in the interests of a particular group. Is there

information about whether there was such a thing, a police chief or chief investigator, someone’s

whether he acted in the best interests of the person, let’s assume, assuming that he should not be in custody, because other things are necessary

investigations? Is there such information?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: It is important to know that this happened among foreign criminals

I also had to recruit foreign people for reconnaissance – otherwise we wouldn’t have been able to get there, no

we were able to obtain information. That in certain important matters, I was not

I don’t really know. But I myself have asked for small things.

a favor to provide this person with a passport extension or something,

because we couldn’t pay him enough money to keep him with us, because he

not a single Hungarian, that we could have bought it for a hundred thousand forints. These are all so

There were things that didn’t let me fall over to the other side of the horse, because that’s how people

we practically had our hands and eyes on it.

CHAIRMAN: Do you know István Istvanovszky?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: No.

CHAIRMAN: Do you have any information about the KGB’s successor organization operating as a mafia organization?

about your connections in Hungary, about Hungarian officials? Do you have any information about this?

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: This is another thing that is actually the KGB

It started from Hungary despite the news that they didn’t build it for themselves.

bases and other things. They were built after the change of regime. The KGB had a positional advantage

was in Hungary because he had access to anyone through public affairs.

Then we have to look at how, after the opening of borders and the change of regime,

who became the owners of foreign Russian-Hungarian or Ukrainian-Hungarian or any joint ventures

leaders or participants, all those who were key people in the KGB, because they got

The foreign state also had the task of gaining a foothold in Hungary.

This is because the underworld was able to organize itself in Hungary, because it is not the stupid,

pnmitive, people released from prison took over

their management, but rather the

along with the mob, the leaders and managers poured in. It is certain that the successor to the KGB

It has a significant role in shaping the current situation.

CHAIRMAN: Did you have any information regarding Semyon Mogilevich?

He is wanted by the FBI for legal activities, and meanwhile he had businesses in Hungary,

engaged in economic activities and held meetings with people in high economic positions

Do you have any information about this?

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: That the FBI is looking for him – I retired in August ’98.

But what kind of businesses he had or has in Hungary and Austria,

we had an accurate picture. Because practically almost every weapons factory, the Csepel

He bought a paper factory and a couple of other companies that he owned. There was an Austrian oil and

industrial company – I think it’s called Magnesit – which is also a big company in Austria, in which

also had serious interests. Moreover, he also had banking interests in England and America.

We had information. Among other things, he was the one who at the time was the one who emigrated from Russia.

He placed the property of Jews in Hungary, took it down and passed it on. So he knew about it.

was known to be a former KGB major, and was in charge of serious economic matters

he has control. In fact, I think he could have moved the money of a company. (László Balogh:

Someone’s phone is on.)

Everyone knew about Seva that he was a godfather.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Mr. President! I would like to ask…

CHAIRMAN: This is related, one more question and then. So Ukrainian executive group* who

participated,

In Hungary, certain

They participated in market sharing and then suddenly withdrew. Is there any information about these?

liquidations, market acquisition

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: There was practically a group in Sentsovo that

biggest, then there was Igor Korolov’s group, then there was Seres’s group, the Valink-

group. 3-4 groups that were liquidated now, we couldn’t prove that they weren’t liquidated, but

that they participated in the division of territory; this is the force that, after the opening of the border,

It was surrounded by criminals, 3-4 groups, which practically determined the division of the territory.

CHAIRMAN: I asked this because let me give you a direct example from Békés…

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: They were everywhere in the country…

CHAIRMAN: A man from Békés opened a woodworking business, payment problems arose,

the Ukrainians appeared, tied the family to the radiator, broke the hands and feet of the boy,

all movable property was taken and this is how these groups got their money. So

‘they operated not only in the environment, but also elsewhere, and in some cases they carried out explosions,

committed murders and other crimes and were able to move freely around the

In the country.

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: They are still moving freely, practically speaking, if we are already there

‘They bought a huge estate next to the tax station in Szentes, Csongrád County,

which they have surrounded with a brick wall, no one knows what kind of activities they are doing there. But

He could talk about Nyíregyháza, Kisvárda, anything.

CHAIRMAN: Representative Balogh!

V LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Thank you very much. Have you come across such names that

István ivpnaháti or Dr. Katalin Gyepes…

You are welcome!

Top secret!

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired police officer

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: What kind of…?

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Dr. Katalin Gyepes.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired police officer

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: The previous one?

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): István Rónaháti.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired police officer

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: That’s right, I met him.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Could we get some details about this?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired police officer

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: If the Rónaháti I’m thinking of is a retired military officer

Colonel, whom I often met at the Penta Hotel in connection with drug cases. Someone

He found me through me and wanted to pass on a former connection to me by saying he was a good informant.

could be made of it. He told me at the time that he had played a significant role in the Serbian war

He’s an intelligence officer or a counterintelligence officer. That’s all I know about him.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Thank you.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Get a divorce! He was still politically active, and he mentioned it several times

that he used to give advice or information to Gyula Horn.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Thank you.

CHAIRMAN: Question? Here you go, Madam Representative!

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): I would like to ask a bit more generally

in relation to the fact that some of the oil criminals, those who have become rich from oil, are part of the organized

it went into crime. So how do you really see this, was this organized crime?

its path of development, was this where they acquired big capital…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Please, one thing is certain: organized crime

Foreign military forces significantly contributed to the formation of the Hungarian state, but what is decisive

was the millions earned from oil. Because without capital there is no organization, so if there is no

adequate financial background, financial base, cannot dictate, nothing will be created. This is the

The so-called oily few years gave the opportunity to turn petty criminals into white-collar workers.

criminals, or even honest entrepreneurs, because Rockefeller or Ford said that

Don’t ask about the first ten thousand dollars.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): How do you see the chances of politics and law enforcement?

Is there a chance that through our cooperation we can curb this organized crime?

In Hungary?

Top secret!

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Do you want to hear honesty from me?

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): Yes, if possible.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Then I will tell you that I see no chance of it, nothing, that

nothing in the world, because our society has deteriorated to such a degree today that

so-called financiers, who are paid one by one… well, not one by one, but in percentages

can we prove, say, who they were in the past and who they are now? So those who

they represent capital and with capital now also power, they are the underworld please

They started from some point, petty burglars or pickpockets, whatever you call them, they became the

country or the capital, the dominant entrepreneurs and businessmen of the larger cities.

Please, wherever we look, wherever we go, without that politician or

any other decent person would know who XY was in the past and who he is now, a well-dressed

He sees himself as a businessman, he knows, and he even admits it, but everyone forgets that he is the

10-20-100 million or even billion where did it come from, how did it get there, and the life that it brings out

He now pretends that I am away from everything, that I wash my hands, but that is not the case.

Because his soldiers and men are working in the same filth on the other side of the border – now this

It’s figurative that it’s on the other side of the border. He still makes his profit from there.

These people can achieve that they don’t show up, they don’t show up

in criminal, underworld circles, but they have adequate power through economic power, and there

there are, please. Should I tell you that it is possible that they will also join the ranks of parliament?

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): But these are very general…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I’m sorry, I don’t want to give specifics because

I’ve been arrested for nothing. They might execute me in my cell tomorrow without me knowing.

to wake up. Do you understand? But I know very well where the shoe pinches me.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): Good. Then let’s stay with this general question.

I asked earlier what kind of criminal map can be drawn for bombings.

against each other, then you didn’t even want to name these interest groups, which I

of course I accept. My question is, without these interest groups

we would know whether our investigations make sense without it.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Please, the police should investigate these groups from the outside,

He knows it inside out. He knows very well who belongs where and what his role is, or what his role would be,

what should be done about it. The parliamentary committee will not know this by name or address,

you won’t be able to do anything about it. It gives you an opportunity; someone again,

maybe tomorrow

let’s say

They will destroy me or my family.

in this case, I am a traitor

to title someone

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): I have no more questions.

CHAIRMAN: Here you go, Representative Balogh!

Top secret!

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Thank you. Pálocska and Bódis for their crimes

Were they angry with each other?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Pálocska and Bódis not for crimes; Pálocska

practically – as far as I know, Kai Ralph Wolf, this German or Austrian citizen is not

I know how he contacts Pálocská, asks her for help against Bódis.

They come to me in a way where they tell the story and then I tell them what to do.

After that, Pálocska and Ralph are together for a while or longer, when

He comes into conflict with Bódis several times over Ralph’s protection.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Who is being sued for fictitious invoices issued in the name of Energol?

There was a procedure, what do you know about it?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Sorry, I don’t know, I’m not that deep into the

I don’t know the administrative part. I received it from person X., I should find out, understand, know

and about his relationship, and so on, that was my job.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): And how do you know what kind of criminal proceedings were against Pálocska?

or was it.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: What kind of criminal proceedings were there against Pálocska? I understand that he is now closed.

I don’t know why he is under arrest. What kind of person he was before?

I don’t know if there were any criminal charges against him.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Thank you.

CHAIRMAN: Here you go, Representative Fazekas!

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): He met Attila Ferencsik in a summer house.

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Yes.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): It was common for such private properties

Did meetings take place?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: No, please. I’ll answer it. I’m not that financial

in a position to have a summer house, to be able to go to a hotel for a holiday or to spend a holiday in

with my family, so since János Pálocska has a summer house in Balatonfenyves, I asked him to

so that I can go down with my family for three days, Friday-Saturday-Sunday. Ferencsik

; he probably knew I would be there, he showed up either on Saturday or Sunday, I don’t know

”Exactly – I was just cooking in the pot outside – he sat down and started his rhyme. So

Not regular at all…

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): So it was an unusual meeting.

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

lamplight

Top secret!

ALEXANDER

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Yes, it is unusual. On the one hand, I didn’t have time to

I want to meet him, but I don’t have the money for it.

ISTVÁN retired

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): Now I’m thinking about keeping in touch or

something like that…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: No. The meetings under the heading of contact were for me

They are quite scattered across the country. They are usually found in restaurants, cafes, along highways,

I met them in cars, parks, cemeteries, and places like that.

CHAIRMAN: Representative Tóth!

I KÁROLY TÓTH (MSZP): Mr. President, if I may, I would like to ask two short questions.

at the same time, but they are not connected. My first question is this. In those materials,

which we have had the opportunity to read in recent weeks and months, your name appears several times

) name. I think this is not surprising.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: No, not at all.

KÁROLY TÓTH (MSZP): After the kind of work he does. Several times

However, in addition to your name, the name of Sándor Pintér also appears in the same materials. This

I find it surprising.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Which materials are you referring to? We are not reading a newspaper.

(MSZP): The

KAROL TÓTH

operational information provided to us

materials, obviously in the preparation of these operational materials or in the

Your organizations or departments also participated in uploading it, and obviously others also participated.

These contained information that included your name, but Pintér appeared several times.

Mr. Sándor’s name is also…

police

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Try to elaborate.

KÁROLY TÓTH (MSZP): Then I will try to be more specific.

to do. Several times

Mr. Sándor Pintér’s name was mentioned as being referred to by various persons who

They didn’t respect the law, that they could achieve things with it, Uncle Sanyi might be able to help them.

Have you had such an experience?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Please, it was almost everyday, because you have to know,

that my name was known nationwide. It was known precisely because I did not let

to corrupt, to approach, to bribe myself. I kicked my way hard

avoiding people like that. So they knew that if he referred to me or covered up with me, he might

that the other criminal is getting away with it because they didn’t know what kind of relationship I was in,

they knew I was a tough guy within the police force. I told everyone that

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

Whoever refers to me will either be brought before me or be struck in the mouth so that his head is cut off.

So, whoever reaches a certain level, in Hungarian, whoever has a name, not for the first time and not for the last time

It happens that they refer to it. It may be that in your environment you or Pallagra are being referred to.

or they refer to whoever, you know, he’s the representative, my friend, and he’ll speak. That’s how it works.

KÁROLY TÓTH (MSZP): The other question is completely different. Mr. Kacziba said that

There was a meeting between the big oil distributors and Mr. Péter Boross.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired police officer

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I don’t know, because it wasn’t my level anymore.

KÁROLY TÓTH (MSZP): Thank you.

CHAIRMAN: Mr. Fazekas, Representative!

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): This will be a kind of opinion, but it is obviously in it

One question too. You obviously occupied a specific position in the police hierarchy.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired police officer

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: No.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): He was responsible for reconnaissance matters.

ISTVÁN retired police officer

Chief Investigator: Wait a minute! In the hierarchy,

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

ALEXANDER

There was a board of directors

I am one in the ranking.

I was a group leader who was so different from the others that I had a responsibility. There were five or

six of my men, whom I directed during the specific reconnaissance work. There was nothing more.

I had no authority whatsoever. I couldn’t decide anything, I couldn’t sign anything.

nothing, I could not give orders to anyone, except for the direct responsibility for the specific matter.

to my subordinates.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): It is also good that this is being clarified because

When you criticize police leaders and superiors, they are the ones in the police organization.

can also be explained by manifest dysfunctions, and it is not our task to decide whether a

In a professional debate at that time, were you right about a specific decision, or was someone else right?

relies on a different information base, as he may have been higher in the hierarchy and therefore

there may be other clues. Therefore, it is a pity that there cannot be a previously heard

person with whom we had an argument yesterday. Obviously this does not help our clarity now. The

those you mentioned and accepting what you said, people who could not appear

who were higher up or under the control of the police and who were otherwise on the committee

according to the work schedule, they would have been heard together. So I would like to say,

to take all this into account when drawing a kind of conclusion from today’s hearing

Let’s try to summarize. Thank you.

CHAIRMAN: Representative Balogh!

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): I don’t understand one thing. You say that Pálocska is against

There is a case in progress. You know that Pálocska is not a clean person.

Top secret!

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: What is it like?

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): He is not a clean person in this respect. Why was he

Why did you attack yourself?

with this?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Please, I haven’t been a police officer for a long time. I am a Hungarian citizen

I am, and I haven’t been a police officer since August ’98, two years now. What kind of attack would I have given

against myself? Pálocska was not yet in prison, he had not been convicted. How could you say this about Pálocska?

they say, they say, they say the same thing about everyone, so today in Hungary the

It would be impossible to communicate or establish contact with approximately 70 percent of people because

and they say about it.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): I understand that, but based on what has been said, it remains the same for me.

and correct me if this is not true, that you and Pálocská were not only in a working relationship,

but in some form of a friendly relationship…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Wait a minute!

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Because you don’t borrow someone else’s vacation home if you

it has nothing to do with it.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: After I retired, it was not a friendly, but a – let me say

that – a loose relationship remained between us. A friendly relationship, from my point of view, is not the same

means like a casual relationship. By saying I was going down to the beach this weekend

in his summer house, I don’t think I did anything that was against the law or even illegal.

would imply, or would result in illegality.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): I didn’t say that either, I just didn’t understand the

connection…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I wasn’t there as a police officer. I’ve been retired for two years now.

If I had the money to go to a hotel, a campsite or a holiday home,

then I won’t ask for a vacation for two or three days.

CHAIRMAN: You said that you were the leader of a group. Among the members of the group

Were there any who became corrupt?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Certainly not. You have to know that we are being investigated by law enforcement.

organs were constantly watching through an eight-fold filter. Through an eight-fold filter, because

We were constantly in the thick of the underworld, and not only in Budapest, but wherever we went.

nationwide, everywhere. The RSZVSZ is practically

knew our communication system,

our movement, so we were always on the filter. Besides, we all went through

on the “C” type inspection.

Top secret!

CHAIRMAN: So while he was working, while he was in connection with his work, and even the group

There were no complaints about his work.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: No.

CHAIRMAN: Another question is the downtown, the role of Vizoviczky, his connections, their integration into the

into local government, the rise of oil companies in the area of real estate acquisitions, in the city center. About this

Do you have any information?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Please, there is no specific information about it, because this was not it

my job. If you want an answer to this, I, as a civilian worker,

I am a person, I deal with mediation, market research. I can say that today’s Hungarian

in public administration, anyone can be bought anytime, anywhere, and if you have money, anything

available. Anything. Anything. I’ve been in the real estate market quite often, brokering, and

My head was spinning when they asked for a bribe of 100 million for a 1 billion deal.

civil servants to sign what should be signed anyway.

CHAIRMAN: Do you have any information about the Public Foundation for Downtown Public Safety?

ALEXANDER

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: What kind of public foundations were there at the police or

I don’t know about the local government, but it was all funded by the underworld.

ISTVÁN retired

police lieutenant colonel,

CHAIRMAN: According to my information, 20 night clubs fund the downtown public foundation.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

police lieutenant colonel,

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: And who owns those 20 night clubs, may I ask?

CHAIRMAN: I think I asked the question…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

police lieutenant colonel,

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: And who is behind it?

CHAIRMAN: We are curious about this.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

police lieutenant colonel,

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of Directorate: Conticar. Vidoviczki is a soldier.

CHAIRMAN: And the relationship between the police…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

police lieutenant colonel,

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: It’s better not to talk about this. Rather.

CHAIRMAN: Among the materials that were submitted, among the committee materials, there is a

there is also a tape where the 5th district patrol officers argue with the manager of a night club, and

Defense funds are being discussed amidst healthy Hungarian expressions…

Top secret!

Anonymous

Top secret!

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Detective of the Directorate: The same can be said about the downtown police station and the others.

CHAIRMAN: At the same time, the named police chief still enjoys his position.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: This is a living example. Please, when the Whiskey escapes from the

From a fast car, within certain circles, there is a rumor that he can escape because he is a visitor.

Since it is a sunny day, all the guards are down among the visitors, namely many gypsies, people of ethnic origin

person is detained and everyone goes because then they give the jatt. I didn’t make this up,

This is what those who were there say.

CHAIRMAN: The Chinese market and its economic background…

ALEXANDER

ISTEVAN

retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Which one?

CHAIRMAN: We would like to request information on both.

ISTEVAN

ALEXANDER

retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Please, I am neither this nor that, I am not hurting anyone,

I don’t want to hurt anyone, but I’m getting the urge; they’ll say it’s the same again.

I protect the underworld. Péter Tasnádi, who is a criminal because he is a criminal, is there because of the józsefVárosi market

in prison for over a year now. I dare to confirm this because it may be

I’m doing something wrong again, but on the 20th of this month (Sic!) I met General Valenta in a restaurant.

Because they know that I have an information system, it works, among other things, the JózsefVárosi market

the topic of our conversation was what I could suggest or give an idea about,

How could they solve this? I said, “Lacikam, we need to create another market.”

CHAIRMAN: What was László Valenta’s nickname within the police?

ALEXANDER

ISTEVAN

retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate (Laughing)\ What percentage?

CHAIRMAN: Specifically.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I won’t say.

CHAIRMAN: I know about 12 percent. (Interjection.) Let’s stay on the ground of realities.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: That’s why I’m here. And if I didn’t fear for my family, I would still

I could tell you facts for two days. I was in a position at the time where I had to do everything

information went through, both manual and technical information.

CHAIRMAN: Do you have any information about the effectiveness of the transmitted material?

Did you miss your target?

Top secret!

AUamtítoKí

Top secret!

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: My opinion is that the information generated by the investigation

the dog wasn’t interested in the material. I know this because we had a systematizing officer,

who often handed over the materials to the investigators and, being an old fox, marked them and made notes

placed in the file to see if they would open it at all. Well, they didn’t. Because if they did open it

If it had, those marks should have disappeared from the material. More than 10-20-30 kilos

material was created. What is interesting about this is that along the way, the information that we received

The material proved us right, because that’s how the events unfolded.

CHAIRMAN: To my knowledge and information, the material was transferred to a computer.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: It’s just the devil of technology that has become not only a computer

All the material has been written down…

CHAIRMAN: Let me finish the question first. Thank you. Whose computer is it?

this, and is it true that after the person named is acquitted, this information might be

They have come into the hands of those through whom people can be kept in check.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

police lieutenant colonel,

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I don’t understand this question, please elaborate.

CHAIRMAN: So the information, the information resulting from the investigations, was written down.

and taken to a computer.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

police lieutenant colonel,

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: That’s right.

CHAIRMAN: Then came the change, the shift… (Dr. Mária Kóródi: Which one?) The latest…

(Dr. Mária Kóródi: A change of government?)

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

police lieutenant colonel,

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Along with him, the other…

CHAIRMAN: Economic, political, law enforcement, everything, and the essence of this information

part by which certain people can be caught or held in check, these are put into the hands of such a person

who can adequately enforce this. Do you have any information about this?

ALEXANDER

police lieutenant colonel,

ISTVÁN retired

the Central Criminal Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Please, whoever is at least a department head

worked for us, he had access to all the information without any further ado. What

It would be great to know that nowadays you can carry an entire system on two floppy disks. I’m sure there are

such people who saved and took with them information that could be used to

right now, or later, you can profit and impress people, because there were such

information in abundance. Regarding current, past and perhaps future leaders.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Does anyone have any more questions? Here you go, Representative Balogh!

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): You mentioned that there was an example of agents being

they were caught…

DELETED!

State secret!

^71<TAt*llQn

MM ftfllW EP!

Top secret!

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: That’s true.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): So it could be that they committed crimes as well.

they committed…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Detective of the Directorate: Wait a minute, I didn’t mean they brought down the agents,

that a crime has been committed, but the investigation is so helpless or impossible

was in a situation where he was unable to solve the case, that he had sacrificed his life for lack of other witnesses

agent and summoned him as a witness in open proceedings.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): So that’s how he brought him down.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: That’s right.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): On Energol’s Slovak and possibly Russian connections

Do you know anything?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I know that practically Sióm had the biggest

supplier, and several large Russian companies were its suppliers. Which caused problems because

There have been cases where specific equipment was not paid for by the Russian side, or

they sent it back, or said it was of poor quality, they replaced it, etc. So for me

I have information that both Slovak and Russian oil production

was greatly damaged by the non-payment of a very large amount of delivered goods

them.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Energol?

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Well, yes.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): And do you have any knowledge of where Energol is going and possibly

How did you take out or secure your money?

ALEXANDER

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Unfortunately, there is no information about this, because if we had known, we would have caught him

would have.

ISTVÁN retired

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): How big could it have been?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Well, please, you have to do some calculations, but I think

billion, closer to ten than one.

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): What could have been the net benefit?

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

59 Top secret!

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Please, let’s do the math. One train, a normal train

It consisted of 1 million 600 thousand liters of oil, with a customs deferral. Within a week there are 7 or 5 of these

assembly, they buy the spindle oil, HTO, for 32 forints and sell it for 80 or

for sixty-one. So he has a hundred percent profit, because he pays neither taxes nor duties,

nothing.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): You talked about deferred customs payments, we went through this

topic several times, correct me if I misunderstood what you said, I meant that you

he was not speaking against technology, because deferred duty payment is not only for oil, but only for

objected…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

policeman

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: The implementation, the execution.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): So the fact that there was insufficient control is, by the way,

existing laws were not complied with.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Exactly, compliance with the law and its control are not

happened. Because if what happens in a simple legal transaction is that I present my personal information

my ID card that I am Pista Jóska and I control it because I need to control something

at the palit level, on a computer, because computers existed back then, right…?

policeman

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Of course.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Two lines were sent to the central registry on the computer

to Vaskapu Street, from where in 3 minutes they will have their personal data sheet, with the badges on it,

And I compare that József Tóth is not at all the same as Pista Szabó, whose picture

it’s there.

policeman

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Thank you, your answer was reassuring to me.

But I have one more question. In your work so far, how have you experienced that

What role did or could they have played in the development of organized crime and oil crime?

accountants, bankers, lawyers?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Please tell me, without these, people

without which this organization or economic background would not have been possible. Before embarking on such a

small team – not in oil, because there were more things ad hoc – since then, if you have serious banking

They are preparing a trick, a bank fraud or whatever, a serious team of accountants, teams of lawyers

they are busy inventing and varying the possibilities so that if there is any mistake

would slip into the calculation, they could not fail – for example in the Energol and Conticar cases. These

At least fifty lawyers worked on the investigation and investigation of these cases. Just calculate the

amount of money that Conticam and Energol had to pay for their share. How much

represents an amount! Please, in three or four years, lawyers have made tens of millions of profits

profit only from this matter.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Thank you.

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

State secret!

Top secret!

CHAIRMAN: Have you encountered corrupt customs officers during your work?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

I just can’t prove it. I dare to say this – I just won’t name it.

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I could list the entire list – from the soldiers to the biggest

to leaders

because I have negotiated with many people who have committed oil crimes and who have been on record

During outside conversations, he told me how much ten to twenty million he received each week and each month.

had to be given in order for it to work. There were two people who were the masters of life and death, on whom the

There were two people: a department head and a big

If he didn’t sign, no one got it, or that person didn’t get a customs deferral.

So it had its price.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are those two people?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I don’t want to press charges because I won’t be able to prove it,

and then I’ll be put on trial. It’s not hard to guess, anyway.

CHAIRMAN: This is an important issue for the work of the committee. Obviously, that is why

The whole oil affair could have come to this point because there were people in the background (István Sándor: But Mr. Pallag!) who

they ensured this.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Listen here, I’ll tell you that then it was practically the

the entire customs guard as it is, (Károly Karácsony’s accompanying mobile phone rings. – Tóth

Károly: Only the prosecutor’s office doesn’t follow the rules of the game.) They should be replaced from A to Z.

policeman

KÁROLY TÓTH (MSZP): Sorry for interrupting. I would like you to record the

protocol that the rules of the game requested by the prosecution are only provided by the prosecution

investigators or workers did not comply.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Please, those who have practically been exempted from the introduction of the deferred tax

they existed, were, are… You should only look at those points, go around and

to investigate who were the people who were authorized – there were two people – to issue the

customs-deferred permits.

policeman

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): Specifically.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

policeman

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Those were the masters of life and death.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): Not at the general, not at the regulatory level, but

the seal… (István Sándor: I didn’t just say that. – Dr. Sándor Fazekas: Ministerial

There are also things of a higher level.)

ALEXANDER

Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Or should we look at what Péter Tüske was doing at the time?

The financial guard major was a very important person in the game, one of the important people. He was

ISTVÁN retired

policeman

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

arrested for this very story. Mr. Thorn was in there for two weeks and said that if he

I’m here for two days, then everyone will sit here next to me. Mr. Thorn was immediately released

placed, and the case was also dismissed due to lack of a crime. This case was then

It was investigated by Police Lieutenant Colonel György Adorján, who is a prosecutor’s investigator at the investigative office.

He is so mentally degraded that he has been banned from the police force as a member of internal security.

honor.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): What does “then” mean? When was the date?

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: This case could have been around 1997. There could be interesting cases and

to find things, but I don’t think anyone cares whether you’re outside of them or among them…

By the way, since this oil committee has been working, my opinion is that because I have taken full responsibility for it.

the parliamentary circus as a whole, the extraordinary, so that it can often re-evaluate the human

nonsense, please, this committee has spent quite a long time on these matters.

My opinion is that the committee has not really gotten any closer to what it set out to do.

or started.

Because when I applied to Mr. Pallag to work for him as a consultant,

I applied because I knew where the shoe fits, and one more thing, from where,

which basket to take it from. That’s when the press and the whole world turned against me

campaign, because the underworld assessed it very well, which it has since communicated to me, that it is completely

no matter what it cost them, it cost a lot, but they wouldn’t let me be in such a

to be near a fire, on which I constantly add coals and do not let them go out. Ok very

They know very well what information I have.

What I said isn’t much, but if I tell the truth, I’m not sure my family

or I’ll live to the end of the year – or however long. Please, there’s so much money at stake here, and

The concentration of power is so great that nowadays… These are not fairy tales, they are not fictions.

I am a fifty-two year old man, I was a police officer for twenty-eight years. Always on the front lines

I worked precisely because I am a fool, I did not allow myself to be bribed. I always

I got into a conflict situation because I always valued my sense of justice more than 5

or 10 million forints. I wouldn’t have such problems with one hundred or two hundred thousand forints. If I had this

If I start a game with a team, then I might be living my life somewhere in silence and joy. But

I didn’t do that, I was stupid. Because those who did that are fine.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): I didn’t want to ask the question, but that’s not why

I told you, but now that you tell me what financial problems you have – those are other people’s

press releases that appear about you.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Please, you have to go to my apartment, you have to look at it. The

My wife has been a prosecutor for thirty years, I was a police officer for twenty-eight years, and at the moment I am

The family has two hundred thousand forints. We have no luxury needs, we have nothing.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): Only what is made public about you…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: We have to go and see! The investigative office was out there,

he could see the great miracle of what was happening.

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): But that’s not what I wanted to ask, and I’m sorry for that.

I asked that. I would like to ask whether Mr. Tonhauser at the hearing – by the way

Both Mr. Tonhauser and Mr. Ernő Kiss spoke positively about your work…

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Please, anyone who is not my enemy should take a stand.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): Mr. Tonhauser said that if there were such a

system where all the information that is held by the APEH, the police, the

are available at the prosecutor’s office, if you put this together, then it can be practically assessed and

demonstrable

there would be the oil map, Hungarian organized crime, everything that goes with it

is related. Do you think this is true? Does this information exist?

Another issue is that there is no political will to push this together, but if

If such a will existed, would the necessary information really exist?

can they be pushed together? If this could be solved, we would really see more, and this

the work we do would have meaning.

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Please, this is actually true, because every company

has its own little pile of junk that needs to be there. There is information that

which are not public, they do not pass them on, but are included in their own system and database.

If you put this entire set of information into a big hat, with an analyst, an evaluator

we would compare it with properly trained professionals, not amateurs, and we would learn a lot from this

could be clarified. Only – as you said, there is no political will, and even if there was –

It is not certain that it would be in everyone’s best interest to be involved in this system.

gets close to power to reveal the truth. Because once and for all

It must be noted that this power is controlled from outside: money.

This is my opinion. And the money didn’t go into the pockets of ordinary people, but

into the nouveau riche who were the burglars of the eighties. Now they control the

system, these are the ones with the big money. And just like they were able to buy it a few years ago

people, they will still be able to buy it, today and tomorrow.

people.

First of all, the consciousness should be established somewhere that this is my country, this is my

I want it to be better or more beautiful. But unfortunately, this consciousness doesn’t work that way.

My pockets should be full, and then I’ll bet that everyone will turn up around me tomorrow.

Unfortunately, this consciousness prevails among people in Hungary today. It prevails because

people are so indifferent to each other that it doesn’t matter if you go now

on the sidewalk, you trip, and I’ll walk past you. Right? Or your family doesn’t have

on greasy bread, the other one is slouching and throwing caviar. And unfortunately the proportions are shifting

that there will be more and more people who don’t have access to fatty bread, and there is a small layer that is in the caviar

dances. And this brings with it the fact that people’s consciousness, their ideas, cannot be changed.

by speaking now, I am talking nonsense; the mere facts determine the

people’s consciousness in Hungary and the world.

CHAIRMAN: I would like to tell the members of the committee one more piece of information, that when

When István Sándor was brought forward to assist the committee’s work, the

Most of the information about him came from here, from the prosecutor’s office. (Dr. Mária Kóródi:

(To the President already?) His negative assessment.

Here you go, Representative Balogh!

Top secret!

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Thank you very much. I would like to ask Dr.

George Balogh…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Uncle Gyuri? I have to say that Dr. György Balogh, the

We managed to invite Uncle Gyuri, who had a big eye, to a party for several hours one night.

in a small country pub, that we talked to the old man with a trembling mouth. Because he thought – on whom

we found through – that we know everything about it. We knew nothing about it. We realized

I personally realized that the old man was very scared, and I started

bluffing, and he called the bluff all the way through.

At the end he said things that made me feel cold. He himself put it in his pocket,

someone else pocketed it, everyone pocketed this money. In fact, he lobbied for Energol,

The 103 wagons seized in Szeged belong not to Energol, but to a related company

Because he was caught there, 103 wagons of oil were seized, they didn’t pay customs. Then

The managing director was a good man from Cegléd, and through his intercession he wrote a letter to Amold.

Uncle Gyuri and Amold both felt that the ground was now very slippery, passed it on, and

This led to arguments. The point is that Amold didn’t even dare to sign this paper. Gyuri

Uncle knew very well. I tell you, I have never seen a man as scared as the old man.

that night. He thought we knew everything, but we knew nothing, only points and

The old man called the bluff by telling us things we couldn’t prove.

because it could not be proven.

Or, for example, a story like this, just as an interesting fact, so that it doesn’t become so

boring. I don’t remember the date, ’96 or ’97. There’s a display of oil in Siófok,

which consists of ten or I don’t know how many wagons. The customs officer there was a new kid who

was placed there then, so he was not actually initiated into the stories of how

the oil story works, because Siófok was a good place in that respect. We are going down to the

At the branch in Siófok, my colleague and I were confused for some reason when the new employee came in.

The customs officer goes to the branch manager and asks for help, because he

He feels that this assembly is faulty because they claim that it has spindle oil in it, but he checked to see that

diesel. And he held the train back.

What’s happening? The commotion starts, the big people are there, phones are ringing left and right,

The commander is ordered to the VPOP headquarters the next day with the story that

during the time he is away, they will do the formalities and the so-called spindle oil

diesel fuel, which was worth 80 million forints at the time, leaves the railway station. The customs officer

He issues instructions to his deputy and everyone that until he gets back, this

The train cannot move and they cannot clear the customs. And yet all kinds of generals intervened

in this matter. The point is that they don’t dare take the train and in the meantime they tell this story.

The customs officer tells us a story too, and I tell my man that it’s fine, then

let’s get a few bottles, the customs officers gave us bottles, we also took off the labels on each bottle for the sake of the wall

sample. We put it away, put it down at the branch.

Two days later, the customs lab indicates that this assembly contains spindle oil.

Tonhauser calls the person in charge and says, “We also have a sample of the agamytura, let’s have it examined.”

and this too, but we won’t do this with the customs officers, but with Veszprém. Within two hours, we’ll be

it wasn’t spindle oil, it was diesel oil. And then it happens, I’m a witness to a conversation,

When Mihály Amold calls Colonel Tonhauser, I am sitting in his office opposite him, and

He says that you, Lacikam, you know, that Siófok train, that party oil, this has already spoken, it has spoken

that too, and well… I remember. Tonhauser recorded this conversation, so that’s how they went

these are friendship stories.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): What party was it?

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR

retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

He was the chief investigator of the Directorate: H is from the Socialist Party. He was called, and I know, Comrade Csintalan;

Naughty’s name was often spun in this story.

CHAIRMAN: Sámuel Beke was the customs commander in Siófok.

ISTVÁN SÁNDOR

retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: I don’t know who it was.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Stoller Kft. in Szeged received ten million forints…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: It must have been a smaller company.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Thank you very much.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: The truth is that we didn’t own Szeged that much,

In Szeged, the head of the economic protection department, Tóth-Molnár, is quite in control

held the

oil matters. The detection rate was quite good.

CHAIRMAN: The cases are proceeding successfully… They will last for another four years. The Imolas

they make sure it ends.

Are there any more questions? (No one answers.) Thank you for the information, we look forward to answering your questions.

gave an answer…

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Please, my request to the committee is that

although the prosecutor’s office forbade it; that I committed the crime for which I am now in prison

I didn’t do it, I’m locked up completely innocent, and I’m locked up because I shut my mouth.

I didn’t shut up. I am the victim of a concept lawsuit based on fabricated charges. What could be

I’ll prove it someday, but until then I might have to sit in jail for a few months, innocent. Because

if I don’t report to Mr. Pallag at that time, I’m not with the press, I’m not here,

I am not a drag. My ordeal began there, when I got into the oil

into history, and since then I’ve been delving deeper and deeper into this field.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you for the information, the answers to the questions, the members of the committee.

also for their cooperation. To close the committee meeting, thanking the prosecutor’s office… (Tóth

(To be held, Mr. President.) Then

Károly: Sorry, we need an Other Agenda item.

I’ll retract the previous ones, then we’ll take a break for a few minutes, and then we’ll continue.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): I suggest that we not take a break.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): I need to vent a little…

CHAIRMAN: I would like to ask one thing before we leave. The request was that

The phone should be turned off. What was the reason that this phone was not turned off?

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

STATE

Top secret!

switched on! It’s that simple.

Tisérő: The reason was that this phone always has to be on.

CHAIRMAN: Then why couldn’t you have said it at the beginning?

Teacher: Because no one asked.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): We all automatically turned it off.

CHAIRMAN: I told everyone to turn off their phones, and then I had to speak.

But even then, the device indicated that a phone was working, and we didn’t know whose it was.

Thank you for participating.

ALEXANDER

ISTVÁN retired

Police Lieutenant Colonel, Central Crime Investigation Department

Former Chief Investigator of the Directorate: Can I leave?

CHAIRMAN: Yes. Thank you.

(Break: 1:30 p.m. – 1:35 p.m.)

CHAIRMAN: We will continue the committee meeting with the “Other” agenda item, which is the closed meeting.

the evaluation of the minutes and the issue of publicity. (László Balogh speaks.)

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Thank you very much. We have several alternatives. One of them is

The alternative is for everyone to get up, go out, and do whatever they want, at their own discretion.

wants. There is another alternative, which means that the committee decides as Nógrádi

case, except for the press conference the next day that the minutes will be written down, this is the

minutes in some form – I don’t even know in what form, this needs to be discussed –

shall be brought before the committee, and the committee shall consider either the entire minutes or a section of the minutes

We can’t restrict anyone, because if someone comes out and speaks…

CHAIRMAN: The main question will be what the committee thinks of István Sándor.

regarding his arrest. He reiterated what he said here, and his legal representative also

he said. So this will be the sensational question from the press.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): We cannot have an opinion on this.

CHAIRMAN: Here you go!

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): My view is that I warn everyone against

to form any opinion on such a pending matter. Nor with information

We have, or one party has made a statement, the other party’s information is unknown. The

My observation is that nothing so groundbreaking has been announced, we have a mosaic picture before us.

I can accept that after the description we review it to see if there is anything in it that

because there were a lot of names mentioned. I think there were factual errors in it, because it definitely

I remember that Béla Tóth was arrested and released in ’98. There are other irrelevant

and in relation to it, it has already been described sixty thousand times. I can accept that a week later

be made public, because if we were asked now what we would say, it would be about

There are three or four things that are new developments. The cheese makers have been preparing for it for six months anyway.

through these things what has already been written. If at the very beginning of the investigation, in March

Top secret!

Let’s listen to him when he’s not told the oil stories by forty people, but by himself.

First, then the fact that has the power of surprise is obviously of a different nature. So I can accept that.

I would like to add that our faction is expected to hold a press conference this afternoon.

about such topics, but if this is a closed session, then of course we will only say what is allowed in the closed session.

meeting allows, and we do not disclose information about it.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. When the minutes are ready, the committee will review them and the

will decide at the next meeting what it will make public. I suggest this.

Representative Tóth!

KÁROLY TÓTH (MSZP): I can go that far with great difficulty. If now

we decide that next week the announcement will be made public next week, I

I can accept that. I can accept that when the minutes are prepared, we will entrust

the secretariat, because – as I said – there were one or two non-content-related parts that

formally it cannot be said that, let’s say, her code name is: Okoska. It does not refer to the content

We change the codename. The codename really cannot be made public because it is a strict state and

service secret. There are some of them – code names, action names, there were a couple of those, not too many.

many – when it contained a specific codename or action name. So I’m not talking about

so that it is not clear that the oil train belongs to the Socialist Party. (Dr. Mária Kóródi: It is not a code name

MSZP. – Clarity.) Clear. I just said it to make it clear that it is not content

I want to control it from a technological perspective, but I can control it from some technological aspects.

imagine that it is not formally possible to do it, that we make it public.

But that’s why I told you, the nickname Smarty mostly stuck with him, which he used to

formally cannot be made public. But it doesn’t matter what we call it. I know that

imagine that we tell the press, or at least I do, that ladies and gentlemen,

We heard it in a closed session, the minutes will be presented in full next week to the committee.

will be announced at the meeting.

CHAIRMAN: Is that acceptable then?

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): Absolutely.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): Written down, checked off, and then it can go public.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Taking into account confidentiality considerations.

KÁROLY TÓTH (MSZP): I only said aliases, no

confidentiality

aspect, because then you would have to send it here, there, you would have to send it to 101 places. No

I support sending it to 101 places. We ourselves know which are the few classics

alias.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): I have a question. When was the

agreement on this hearing, we have accepted that matters related to the investigation

the process is different. If we make the entire material public and there is a part in it where the

the prosecutor’s office representative also indicated that it is different, then I suggest you reconsider, so that the

Let us later be accused of not being able to commit a crime or this

or to prove this or that, because we have made this part public. I will consider this

I recommend.

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): This was a short part, it doesn’t necessarily have to be

to make public.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): We can do this next week too, so that then

Let’s see what affects this.

DR. KORNÉLIA BÍRÓ (General Prosecutor’s Office): This is the only

to name

is connected, who as we know is also in custody.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz):

It happened three times…

DR. JUDGE KORNÉLIA (General Prosecutor’s Office): But if it happens anyway and it’s not there,

that the prosecution said it here, then it is indifferent that his name appears among the others.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Excuse me, Mr. President, then I would like to make a proposal that

that in the case of aliases, the prosecutor’s office representative will review it before we distribute it, and that

what was said, in what context was this name said…

DR. JUSTICE KORNÉLIA (General Prosecutor’s Office): No. Only the intervening part is needed.

to leave it out, and then it is not possible to conclude which of the 35 names is…

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): That’s right. Yes.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): So only your intervention would go out and the chief minister.

Thank you. If that’s okay, then it’s acceptable to me.

DR. JUDIT CSERHÁTI, committee member: We will see what is there, and you

they get a complete material.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): We don’t need the codename and this sentence in ours either, and we don’t

you need to make two materials.

DR. SÁNDOR FAZEKAS (Fidesz): You can pull all this out of mine,

calmly.

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): We know, we noted it. We don’t need two of these.

to make an alternative copy.

KÁROLY TÓTH (MSZP): One more. Are we voting on this?

LÁSZLÓ BALOGH (MDF): Excuse me, in view of the previous decision, yesterday

After tonight, I think we’ll vote on everything.

CHAIRMAN: Those who accept, please confirm with a show of hands! (Vote.) Unanimous.

I will record the substitution for the following: Representative Fazekas Lajost Dorkota, Balogh

Representative Ilona Vígh, deputy Tóth replaces Representative Vastagh.

KÁROLY TÓTH (MSZP): I have two requests. The first. I would like to ask

the representative of the prosecutor’s office that they would like information about the two gentlemen who were present as escorts

to get what their positions are. Normal guards?

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

DR. JUDGE KORNÉLIA (General Prosecutor’s Office): I don’t know, I don’t even know which one

they belong to an organization.

KÁROLY TÓTH (MSZP): Then I would like to ask the office through a referral

representative, more precisely, a representative of the Investigation Office of the Metropolitan Prosecutor’s Office, if

any notes are made, the two gentlemen who were present are asked to make a note, then this

Let’s get it into the committee. (Interjection.)

Technician ZOLTÁN DÓKA: Special service of the emergency police.

CHAIRMAN: To my knowledge, no record has been made of their participation.

according to.

DR. JUDIT CSERHÁTI, secretary of the committee: This is an internal matter of the police.

CHAIRMAN: Is there anything else?

KÁROLY TÓTH (MSZP): It wouldn’t reassure me if we told the police about it

would make a note of who reacted, how, when, which comment they liked,

which one is not.

CHAIRMAN: It will be in the minutes.

DR. MÁRIA KÓRÓDI (SZDSZ): That’s not what we mean…

CHAIRMAN: I will close the meeting.

(Session ended at 1:46 p.m.)

/ / / a ^

‘species’

Laszlo Paliig

chairman of the investigation committee

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

U / nuijr ^ i

State secret!

Top secret!

Table of contents

Presidential inauguration

Pre-Agenda Comments

István Sándor, retired police lieutenant colonel, Central Crime Investigation Directorate

interrogation of the chief investigator

István Sándor’s information

Questions and answers

Others

DELETED!

State secret!

Top secret!

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Hungary’s Parliament secret hearings on organized crime, 2000

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