LITVINENKO_TRANSCRIPT_TAPE 2_and_3 – Google Docs-1
Ex lieutenant colonel of FSB Alexander Litvinenko, murdered by radioactive polonium in London in 2006, was videotaped by the Australian journalist Nick Lazaredes in 2003, for the documentary “Crimes of the Kremlin”.
Litvinenko speaks on his personal story, corruption of FSB, links to organized crime, concrete top FSB officers, as well is on his meeting with Putin in 1998, the head of FSB, to discuss those ties.
Abstracts:
18:43:12 What did I feel when I went to see Putin?
18:48:02 Yes, Putin…18:50:00
18:53:14 Well, I… well, I had only one meeting with Putin. He was the Director of the FSB, I came to his office. He called me. I’ll tell you I immediately realised he was lying. I mean, I looked into his eyes… he never looks you i the eye, he lowers his eyes. Well, I… We started speaking about serious matters, I gave him that report and said “In principle, Vladimir Vladimirovich, … the situation, and I’m not speaking about the country as a whole, even if we take just the FSB the situation is critical. There are, for all practical purposes there are criminal gangs led… that are led by our generals.” 19:31:14
“17:48:12 I also know that they staged an attempt, Gusak was staging an attempt on a crime boss Lalahin, that’s a crime boss from Podol’sk, he’s called “Luchok” (little onion) and his surname is Lalahin [Lalakin]. Two agents of Gusak’s boobytrapped his car; it was all under Gusak’s control. Gusak himself kept his distance, he just passed the explosives on to his two agents, an explosive device. When they were attaching that device to Lalakin’s car, it might be one of them received a pager call, the device exploded and two Gusak’s agents died in that explosion… It’s a wellknown story so it’s… 18:26:00
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Litvinenko Transcript – Tape 2
00:00:16:10 All right now, is it working? After Kamyshnikov had actually given me the
order and I think it was an order to organise the liquidation of Berezovsky… Because
he set Task No1, Task No 2 and he gave the Task No 3 to me personally to organise
Berezovsky’s murder. … I immediately took my subordinates and drove to my section
head Gusak Aleksandr Ivanovich. That was on Saturday 27 December 1997. It was his
day off so we went straight to him. 00:46:21
00:47:00 And I told him, “Sasha, we’ve been charged with organising an attempt on
Berezovsky’s life, Boris Berezovsky.” He said, “That’s right.” Because in November
that year, a month before, Gusak had been ordered to begin preparing for the murder of
Berezovsky by the head of our Directorate, Hoholkov. So in November 1997 the head of
our Directorate, General Hoholkov charged Gusak with begin preparing the murder of
Berezovsky, and a month later Hoholkov’s deputy Kamyshnikov set before me, Gusak’s
deputy, a task of organizing Brerzovsky’s murder. 01:24:00
01:24:10 And… so there’d be no doubt at all about it… I have a document here that fully
confirms, that proves that such a task had indeed been set. I can even read it out to you
and we’ll film it later. That document is dated… 2 October 1998. It was issued by the
Head Military Prosecutor’s Office of the Russian Federation. 01:47:10
01:48:08 Well… “To the Executive Secretary of the UIS, Berezovsky Boris Abramovich,
Moscow, Novokuznetskaya St., 40…” I won’t be reading it all out, that’s too long… I’ll
just read out several short extracts. “Dear Boris Abramovich, I inform you that on 30
September 1998 the preliminary investigation on the criminal case regarding the former
head of directorate of the Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation Hoholkov
and his deputy Kamyshnikov that started after your appeal of 15 April 1998 to the deputy
Chief of the Presidential Administration Savostyanov is over. The case is closed on the
basis of Clause 2, Part 1, Article 5 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation
because of the absence of the corpus delicti.” 02:29:00
02:29:18 “It has been established that neither the officers nor the administration of the
said Directorate had not planned or taken any illegal actions against you in years 1997
and 1998. Regarding the report of the officer of the said Directorate Gusak Aleksandr
Ivanovich that in November 1997 Hoholkov had asked him whether he would be able to
kill you, during his interrogation he testified to the following: his conversation with
Hoholkov happened with no other witnesses present, during the conversation Hoholkov
while talking about life in general and reminiscencing about his active combat duty in the
Chechen Republic asked whether Gusak could bump you off.” “Bump off” I’m
translation it into Russian means “murder”. 03:12:04
03:13:02 So Gusak repeated it verbatim. That’s what Hoholkov told him “bump off”.
And the prosecutor wrote it down verbatim. 03:20:10
03:20:14 “That question was asked by Hoholkov within the context of a general
discussion that was not touching you directly. Therefore Gusak did not perceive the
words of his superior as a direct order to engage in committing murder.” And here the
prosecutor lies. Because Gusak did take it as being charged with organising a murder…
of Berezovsky. And I have an audio… videotape I’ll give it to you where Gusak
openly admits that he had been ordered to kill Berezovsky. He just sits there and tells it
to Dorenko during an interview. We have that tape. 03:51:00
03:51:16 “Hoholkov himself flatly denies having any intentions of killing you or making
any statements to that effect. As for the thoughtless statements directed against you by
Kamyshnikov on 27 December 1997 in the presence of his subordinates Litvinenko,
Shibalin, Pontin and Latyshonok…” that’s the meeting I told you about. “… those
remarks discredit him as a superior, however they also do not prove the existence of an
intention to organise your murder. 04:20:08
04:20:12 It is signed “senior special cases investigator Nikolay Ivanovich Pavlov”. Here
“senior special cases investigator at the Chief Prosecutor’s office, colonel, military jutice
(?)”. Here is his signature. Here is this document. I can show it to you.
04:33:06 So in fact this document proves that the task… that our head of
Directorate in November 19… This document proves, this document proves
that in November 1997 a head of the FSB Directorate, the URPO Directorate
the Directorate for investigation and suppression of criminal organisations
major general Hoholkov in November 1997 set before Gusak, the head of the
Section 7 that task, and inquired whether he could “bump off”
Berezovsky. 05:07:06
05:07:10 So a head of a Directorate called a section head and set before
him a task to organise Berezovsky’s murder. People don’t say such things
without meaning them. And next month in December 1997 the deputy head of
the same Directorate charges me with the same task in presence of three
other subordinates by the way, all of them testified that it did happen
well, to prepare Berezovsky’s murder. 05:31:00
05:31:04 And here, the prosecutor is even afraid to write down… the
prosecutor who received orders from the top Mr. Demin was the head of the
Hear Military Prosecutor’s office at the time, he was the former FSB
general, they transferred him from the FSB to the Hear Military
Prosecutor’s office, he was a friend of Nikolai Dmitrievich
Kovalev. Naturally, the Chief Military Prosecutor ordered them to close
the case. And the prosecutor doesn’t even spell out what Kamyshnikov said,
verbatim, he only says that those statements discredit him. 06:02:08
06:02:12 So even while those statements discredit… discredited
Kamyshnikov as a superior and the prosecutor does write about that so
that proves that Kamyshnikov discredited himself with his statements on
Berezovsky… Do you know what happened to Kamyshnikov after this paper
arrived? Well, after the prosecutor’s office sorted it out and wrote that
that Kamyshnikov discredited himself with his statements about Berezovsky
meaning by giving orders to kill Berezovsky Mr. Putin, already the
Director of the Federal Security Service, after all this… he gave
Kamyshnikov his new appointment he became a deputy head of the FSB Russia
Directorate for Protection of the Constitutional Regime. 06:50:04
06:50:08 So Kamyshnikov got promoted and continued his service. And those
officers who refused to follow his criminal orders were expelled from the
FSB, and Gusak was found guilty as well. 07:02:12
07:40:12 Well, I know about those murder operations that were handled by
the officers of our Directorate. Firstly, I did not take part in those
operations but I ended up in that Directorate because Kovalev thought that
I had participated in one operation of that type. I know that in 1997 our
section head Gusak at that time all of us were still serving in a
different Directorate, the Counterterrorist Directorate following the
orders of the Director of the FSB Nikolai Dmitrievich Kovalev as well as
the head of the Ops Department Mironov took part in a bandit “meet up”, as
they say it’s a jargon word I mean in a bandit “sortout”, a meeting…
08:25:00
08:25:04 Well… And after that meeting they took to… to an outlying…
to one of the districts in the Moscow countryside, not far from Moscow…
they took five or six men that later were killed. Well, as far as I
know… when that criminal case was opened in 1998 they started
blackmailing Gusak to force him to change his statements. He was afraid…
I tried to find out what happened and I learned the following… 08:53:16
08:53:20 Well… I also found out who took part in that operation. I
found that in 1997 the former Chairman of the KGB Semichastny together with
his son had opened a company in Moscow… How that company was called? I
think it was called “???? VRV”, I might be mistaken, but I think that’s
what it was. Yes. That company was located in Moscow. Its head… the
former Chairman of the KGB Semichastny, his son was the head of that
company. And they borrowed money from someone and refused to return it,
they couldn’t give it back. 09:29:16
09:29:20 And those people who lent them that money would come to the
company premises and demand that money from Semichastny and his
son. Semichastny asked the FSB Director Kovalev to help him to solve that
problem so those people would go away and he wouldn’t have to return the
money. So Kovalev called Ivan Kuzmich Mironov and Gusak, and Mironov was
the head of the Directorate where we served, he’s now the head of the
Counterterrorist Directorate, or rather the head of the Operative and
Investigative Directorate in the FSB Counterterrorist Department. 09:59:18
09:59:22 They called Gusak in and ordered him to solve the problem to
make those people leave Semichastny alone. Gusak took the men of his unit
I wasn’t serving under him at the time, we served in different sections,
I was head of one unit and he was heading another, so we were at the same
level but we were serving in one Directorate. He took his subordinates
lieutenant colonel Bavdey, I know that there was a lieutenant colonel
Bavdey, and major Alyoshin. They drove to that company and waited for
those people who came to collect that debt, who came for their money. 10:33:01
10:34:00 They tied those people up, illegally, put them in a car… As far
as I understand it, they claimed they were officers of a lawenforcement
agency… Gusak wasn’t there alone. I know three names, but there were
other people there. I don’t know who they where. They drove them off to
one of the outlying districts of Moscow and killed them all. As I was told
they forced them on their knees and shot them through the head five or
six people. Well… 10:57:06
10:57:10 And well… Gusak reported to Kovalev, Kovalev knows, Mironov also
knew that that operation had been completed. And after that Gusak was
transferred… I mean, they offered him a transfer to that group… 11:13:04
11:13:08 And Kovalev offered me as well… I at the time… we were
conducting an operation and one of my subordinates used his weapon… I
mean he used his weapon according to the law… I mean, we were trying to
arrest a criminal, there was a warrant out for him, he resisted arrest and
tried to escape. My subordinate fired four shots in the air and then used
his weapon and wounded the criminal so we arrested him. We reported that
to the attorney general’s office, and the attorney general’s office closed
the case because the weapon had been used legally. Well, police of any
country has a right to use weapons against a criminal during arrest. 11.46:16
11:46:20 And Kovalev said “Oh, they’re shooting people in your unit…” And
then he said “You’d better transfer to the group… we need people like you
there.” 11:53:06
11:53:10 So Gusak… illegally, they killed several men, that’s what I
know. I also know that officers of our Directorate later… I mean, the
one I served in, the Directorate for suppression of criminal
organisations… namely I know that Andropov Aleksei, we had operative
information on that, that Andropov Aleksei… they took part, they
organised murders… we had operative information that they organised the
murder of the Mayor of Nefteyugansk, someone called Petukhov, that that was
done by the officers of our Directorate. What happened was a criminal
“turf war” for oil or gas, whatever. 12:33:00
12:34:04 I also know that the officers of our directorate organised the
murder of the director… of the Director of the Novorossijsk Port. I
don’t remember his surname but it was a famous case, it made a splash in
the papers. Also I happen to know that even before our Directorate was
created the FSB officers, I mean, those who worked with Hoholkov, kidnapped
Feliks Lvov from the Sheremetevo1 airport. 13:07:12
13:07:16 There was a man called Feliks Lvov; I think he even was an
American citizen. And he was kidnapped from the airport. He was shown an
FSB ID… By the way, I… They were seen by one man only, he’d been
sitting there, an airport guard… Later I showed him the photos he
recognised our officers… It wasn’t for the record, of course, because he
was scared. He said… I showed him several photographs of our agents and
asked him “Do you see the guy who was an officer… who showed the FSB ID
and took Feliks Lvov away?” He identified one. “This one.” he said. That
was one of the officers from our Directorate. 13:40:00
13:40:04 Well, Feliks Lvov was found dead literally… several days later
after he’d been kidnapped. 13:47:00
13:47:04 On top of that I know that Gusak personally organised the murder
of an American citizen Paul Tatum (checked). That’s the man who’d been a
coowner of the RadissonSlavyanskaya Hotel. Mind you, when he was
collecting data on Paul Tatum and I was helping him to get that
data… because at the time I was serving in a unit that used tax police
IDs as cover… 14:17:00
14:29:00 Well, I’ll tell you how it happened. Yes. The murder of Tatum
was organised by Gusak… I mean he did it. But the murder was organised
as far as I know… Gusak wasn’t trying to hide anything… It was
organised the request came from Luzhkov and then it went through
Kovalev. So Luzhkov contacted Kovalev and Kovalev gave an order to
Gusak. And so… Gusak, after that murder, after he killed that Paul
Tatum, organised his murder… Gusak, well… I’ve seen a photograph where
Gusak is with Luzhkov. He is, well… in… at… 15:10:08
15:12:12 Well, Luzhkov has a close friend, he was one of the deputies at
MosGor… at the Moscow City Council, that’s Nikolai, Marina, what’s his
surname? Moskovchenko. So Gusak… wrote Moskovchenko in as our
source… and Moskovchenko officially became Gusak’s source. And Gusak was
on good terms with Platonov, the head, the Chairman of the Moscow City
Council… And once at one of our operative apartments, at an apartment
used for covert ops, I saw Gusak, Moskovchenko and Platonov, the Chairman
of the Moscow City Council. 15:49:08
15:59:12 They’re all on the best of terms with each other, including
Luzhkov. So when Moskovchenko’s daughter was born, Gusak… Luzhkov was
the godfather of Moskovchenko’s daughter and Gusak was a part of the
team. So Moskovchenko, Platonov, Gusak, Luzhkov I saw that photo, Gusak
showed me, where he’s with Luzhkov… And so… I mean… Gusak performed
as… Gusak got that commission personally from Luzhkov, I think, the only
other thing was that Luzhkov approached Kovalev, so Kovalev wouldn’t
interfere with Gusak. They did that job, I mean, they killed Tatum… And
after that Gusak received an official chart from Luzhkov, that was 800th
anniversary of Moscow, those charts were issued to the most deserving
citizens of Moscow, those who did some spectacular service to the city. And
Gusak had that chart on his office wall right over his head. 16:39:10
16:39:12 And I said “Well, Gusak, nowadays you get this kind of citation
for your work. Soon Luzhkov will give you a medal. He’ll create one for
you. Just shoot some more people who stand in his way and Luzhkov will
give you a special medal, just for you… As the most… the most… the
most noble muscovite.” 17:02:00
17:05:22 Gusak had been found guilty. But naturally, he took back what he
said and did not make any trouble. He got out on probation. Yes, he got a
suspended sentence, three years, probation, though the charges contained 12
criminal episodes and one corpse. I mean, one death that was proved to be
his work, they proved he killed and there was evidence that it had been
murder. Well, and… Gusak got three years of probation. Today he lives
in Moscow and, as far as I know, he works as a lawyer. 17:37:21
17:38:00 I mean, they don’t abandon their own. They didn’t touch Gusak and
I’m sure that if need be Gusak will continue doing what he’s been doing
before. 17:48:08
17:48:12 I also know that they staged an attempt, Gusak was staging an
attempt on a crime boss Lalahin, that’s a crime boss from Podol’sk, he’s
called “Luchok” (little onion) and his surname is Lalahin. Two agents of
Gusak’s boobytrapped his car; it was all under Gusak’s control. Gusak
himself kept his distance, he just passed the explosives on to his two
agents, an explosive device. When they were attaching that device to
Lalahin’s car, it might be one of them received a pager call, the device
exploded and two Gusak’s agents died in that explosion… It’s a wellknown
story so it’s… 18:26:00
18:43:12 What did I feel when I went to see Putin?
18:48:02 Yes, Putin…18:50:00
18:53:14 Well, I… well, I had only one meeting with Putin. He was the
Director of the FSB, I came to his office. He called me. I’ll tell you
I immediately realised he was lying. I mean, I looked into his eyes… he
never looks you i the eye, he lowers his eyes. Well, I… We started
speaking about serious matters, I gave him that report and said “In
principle, Vladimir Vladimirovich, … the situation, and I’m not speaking
about the countrly as a whole, even if we take just the FSB the situation
is critical. There are, for all practical purposes there are criminal
gangs led… that are led by our generals.” 19:31:14
19:31:18 “Well… It’s very difficult… I don’t know… It’s very
difficult to work at really fighting crime, organised crime or terrorism
here. Everything is sold, everything is betrayed and actually everything
that is happening here, all the major murders all the major acts of
terrorism, they come from the offices here, from the floors in this
building.” 19:58:18
19:58:22 Well, Putin listened to me and shook my hand. I actually brought
him a huge scheme where we had drawn our generals, the MVD generals,
certain people in the Kremlin and the arrows went down to the commercial
companies through which the money was being laundered and to the criminal
organisations. It was just a general scheme. It was huge, it covered the
whole table. We drew it, me and my subordinates… we spent about two
weeks doing that, sitting there, drawing it, preparing it… 20:29:21
20:31:00 Well, and he looked at that diagram. He refused to take it. The report… the one
on drug dealing that I’ve given him he did take. And… he also asked for my home phone
number. I gave him my home phone number and asked what was it for. He said, “I’ll
give you a call.” And, naturally, in the space of a few days I found out… from my
colleagues in the internal security Directorate that Putin ordered to tape my home phone.
20:57:00
20:57:04 Well, I’ll tell you that… I came to that man openly, I came, after all I… well, we
did have operative information on him that said he wasn’t completely clean, but I thought
that if he’d been appointed to the position of the FSB Director then he was somehow, you
know… he’d be thinking about the state and not about his own pocket. And I, after all,
you know… after all, somehow… well… you understand that if your superior, the head of
the FSB is a bandit, a drugdealer, there’s nowhere to fall from there. But still, you
know… you understand that you are… in real terms you understand that you are… past the
point of no return but still you don’t want to believe it, not completely. 21:37:08
21:37:12 You want to cling to some hope that… that… that something could change… I
mean any man would… I mean, it’s a feeling as if a doctor told you that you had cancer. I
mean, “You have cancer. You’re going to die in, say, a month.” And you hope, till the
very end, that he was mistaken. That’s the feeling. 21:57:16
21:57:20 So you diagnose that organisation… “That’s it, it’s cancer… It can only be cut
out.” But since you’re still looking from the inside you served there, you built your
career, you had a job there, you have a family, and your children… you want to have some
future. You want to have a future. You don’t want to… you don’t want it to collapse
tomorrow your life, things you believed in… You don’t want really to go past the point
of no return. And I still believed that maybe, maybe… 22:26:21
22:27:00 So I came to Putin as if he was my last hope, well… er… almost, as they say, like
one would come to God Himself… I came, and said… Perhaps… You know, we Russians
have it built in our mentality that some authority a Tsar, a God can deliver us from our
troubles… So I came to him and honestly told him everything. Well, and in a couple of
days my comrade from the internal security directorate laughed at me and said, “You
found the right person to talk to. You went to Putin and showed him those materials…
he’s part of that bunch himself. What did you achieve? They just laughed at you. You
gave him your phone number, right?” I asked my friend “How come you know that I
gave him my phone number?” “He gave us an order to put a tab on it.” that means to
tape it. 23:04:14
23:04:18 So, look… I mean, well… we see each other for the first time, and I ask you
“Nick, give me your phone number.” And you ask “What for, Sasha?” “Nick, I’m going
to give you a call.” And you kindly give it to me. Right? Now imagine, Nick, that a
week later you find out that I’m taping your phone calls. What ill you think of me?
You’ll say, “That Litvinenko is just scum.”, right? Well, I think that Putin is scum.
23:36:00
23:36:20 Because I came to him honestly. I was responsible for my subordinates, and
they were giving honest service. I came to him, I trusted him after all. I gave him the
materials… serious materials that perhaps… well… we wouldn’t offer them to all comers…
And the man asked for my home phone, that’s where my wife and my little son live… I
gave him my phone number and instead he… and he deceived me and started taping it.
24:07:08
24:07:12 Well… To me all this was… personally… it wasn’t anything serious really well,
they listened to my phone calls what could they hear? Nothing. I’m not a criminal, I
don’t deal in drugs and don’t kill people in dark lanes. But Putin… he showed his true
colours. And if he could behave in such a dishonourable way and I think what he did
was foul then that’s what characterises him. I mean, he’d do that not only to me but to
anyone. 24:40:14
24:40:18 And when they sign all those joint antiterrorist treaties, and he’s visited by
presidents I watch it all and laugh. Because I’m 100% sure he’ll cheat them. You can’t
trust that man. He could have behaved differently. He didn’t have to ask for my number.
Or he could have asked for it but without saying “I’ll give you a call.” Or he could have
just went to the human resources and asked for my number and given a quiet order to put
a tab on it. 25:09:04
25:09:08 But he bothered to take it from me and told me “I’ll give you a call.” I mean…
well… I mean, he… I wouldn’t say he humiliated me… well… I mean, I don’t even have
words for that. Decent people don’t behave like this. I mean, no professional
responsibility, no duty, I think, no higher duty can force a man to behave this way.
25:35:16
25:35:20 I mean, even when I had to deal with criminals, with murderers well, it’s my
line of work you arrest murderers, you arrest terrorists, you talk with them… And it
happened occasionally that… well, you talk to him and write down his statement and
then, well, you ask him about something intimate, personal, you try to clarify something
and he says “Let it stay off the record. I’ll tell you, just don’t write it down. Give me
your word you won’t pass it on. I’ll tell it just to you, so you’d know. But I can’t confirm
it on public. Please, it’s not for public knowledge.” 26:16:21
26:17:00 It happens to journalists too, right? People often tell you something but want it
to not to go any further. And any operative in any country, any policeman has cases like
that. And if we give our word that’s how I worked and how I trained my subordinates
to work if I give my word “All right, tell me, it won’t go past me but I need to know.”
I’ll never allow myself to cheat anyone in this. I mean, if a man trusts you whatever
kind of man it is if a man tells you something just for your reference, you can’t deceive
him. Ever. 26:48:12
26:48:16 The same thing happened between me and Putin. I came to Putin, I came… and
I, I mean… I trusted him, I told him everything. He knew… I mean, well, that we were
really engaged in fighting organised crime and terrorism, that we really had leads to our
generals… and that we had real data on our generals, real crimes… and corruption. I
brought it all ho him and he disbanded our section… and all the officers who took part in
that, who honestly served their motherland, honestly served their people these are not
just words, all those guys did serve honourably and well all of them were expelled from
the service, they lost their jobs and some even were convicted, illegally… 27.36.00
28.23.16 I have it. That’s it, I understand. I’ll explain. All right, I’ll be brief. As for the
explosions… it’s hard to explain in a few words… It’s a serious problem… and it’s a very
serious crime it was an act of terror and many people died. And it’s hard to compress
into a few words. But for the benefit of your TV audience, the people who’ll be watching
this film I’ll try to be brief. 28:51:16
28:52:04 Well, we had four houses blow up in September 1999 two explosions in
Moscow, one in Volgodonsk and one in Buinaksk. And after those explosions another
incident happened that opens our eyes naturally on who had been responsible for those
explosions. I’ll explain shortly. In September, sometime around the 20 th , in Ryazan, yes
the 20 th or close to it, a house was mined. 29:25:10
29:25:14 People who had been setting the mine were noticed by one of the inhabitants,
Mr. Kartofelnikov. He saw that car and the men who were taking sacks out of it and
lowering them into the basement. Naturally, maybe if it was the first case, the first one, if
not for those four previous explosions, he wouldn’t have paid any attention to them. But
since those four houses did blow up and all the country was in a state of emergency…
everybody was talking of houses blowing up and those sacks of sugar in the basements…
So he noticed them and called the police. 30:01:12
30:02:00 The police arrived but the people who put those sacks there had already
departed. Our police always arrives on time. Well… And they found sacks full of
explosives and an explosive device. Proceedings were instituted and the search for
terrorists began. The search went on for three days. On the third day those persons were
apprehended. They proved to be officers of the FSB and after they had been arrested the
FSB Director Patrushev claimed it had been a trial exercise. 30:35:00
30:36:12 Well… after that incident happened… I mean… I understood that the four houses
before that had been the handiwork of those people arrested in Ryazan. Why? Because
any sleuth will tell you, any policeman in any country will tell you if you have one street
or one city or one region where within a short limit of time a robbery happens, a bank
robbery where people are sprayed from a machinegun… 31:08:10
31:08:14 I mean, they rob one bank and machinegun the personnel, several days later the
neighbouring… well, let’s suppose a few streets away again a bank is robbed and again
people are machinegunned, another case, then yet another… and then they arrest the guys
with that machinegun during an attempt to machinegun another bank and everybody
understands that the previous four cases were their work. Well, naturally, they start
gathering the evidence, but usually, naturally those people become suspects in those four
cases as well because there are grounds for suspecting that they were responsible for
those four crimes. 31:42:14
31:42:18 The same thing happened here the place, the MO of the crime the mining of
that house in Ryazan is identical to those explosions that took place in Moscow. I mean
the object of the attack is an apartment block, a highrise apartment block, the lodgement
place is the basement, highly effective explosives are used and are delivered in sacks
marked “sugar”. These are not my words, these are the statements of the FSB officials.
32:12:00
32:12:10 So, let’s go back to Ryazan. Patrushev claimed that it had been an exercise.
But what could he say if his officers where arrested while their tracks were still warm?
Well, I completely dismiss Patrushev’s version that it had been an exercise. How? Well,
firstly… in the basement of that apartment block they left no sugar, but cyclonite, an
explosive. Because Patrushev claimed that it had been an exercise and they used sugar. I
say they used cyclonite. 32:43:00
32:43:04 How can it be proved? It can be proved by the fact that a device, gas analyser
M02 that is used by Russian sappers (people that are responsible for deactivating
explosives) cannot make a mistake. There were two studies performed, it has replaceable
cartridges, and both showed the presence of cyclonite vapours. 33:04:00
33:04:04 Secondly, the mine clearing was performed by the sapper named Tkachenko, an
explosives technician Tkachenko together with his assistant. Well, Tkachenko, he’s been
working on deactivation of explosive devices for more than five years. He clears… he
performs up to a 100 clearing operations a year and in five years he hadn’t made a single
mistake. Besides, Tkachenko also doubles as an instructor; he holds classes for other…
explosives technicians. I have an audiotape where he talks about it. 33:36:10
33:36:14 Well. Under no circumstances could Tkachenko take sugar for cyclonite.
Because all the experts questioned by us say in one voice: if a man had seen cyclonite
even once he wouldn’t be able to take sugar for it. In fact, even if he hadn’t seen it…
Why? Because everybody knows what sugar is. Because we use sugar in our food every
single day. Well… That’s the second fact. 34:03:00
34:03:04 The third fact Tkachenko couldn’t mistake an explosive device… er… well… I
mean… we have explosives and an explosive device… If we had explosives that were in
fact sugar… plus an explosive device the case would have been handled by the FSB, by
the police, by the fact that an explosive device had been present. If we had real
explosives but a dummy explosive device the case, once again, would have been handled
by the police, by the fact that explosives device had been present. 34:33:00
34:33:04 But since we had both the explosives and an explosive device the case was
pursued by the FSB because it was defined as an act of terrorism. We had both the
explosives and an explosive device so Tkachenko had to mix up both sugar and
cyclonite and a functional device with a dummy one. It’s impossible for a man with five
years experience to mix them up. 34:57:10
34:57:14 Now… The use of a gas analyser that showed cyclonite vapours proves that
explosives were present. In the explosive device we have all the elements present the
battery, well, batteries that were its energy source, further on, we have (by the way, we
have a photo of that explosive device), we have an electronic clock used as a timer and
we have a detonator they used a hunting cartridge for a detonator, and all the FSB
officers and their superiors claim unanimously that it had been a hunting cartridge.
35:30:04
35:30:08 The very presence of a hunting cartridge and its illegal use in itself constitutes a
criminal offence. I mean, well… that hunting cartridge is a detonator. We held an
experiment in the USA and the detonator… and a hunting cartridge had detonated
cyclonite. So we have an explosive device, we have the explosives and we have an
explosive device. So the house had been mined. 35:53:21
35:54:00 Now. The next fact. How can we prove it had been an act of terrorism? They
started a criminal investigation according to the Article 205, terrorism. That’s one of the
major pieces of evidence. Secondly: the inhabitants of the house were moved out for the
whole night. The police was working under an equalto… under combat conditions. I
mean if they were apprehended, I mean, they could have been killed, I mean, the police
could have used force… By the way, I have inside information that after the arrest one of
the police officers, one of the FSB officers that mined that house resisted arrest and was…
they used force against him… I mean, he was badly beaten during his arrest by the police
officers in Ryazan. 36:36:00
36:38:10 Everything, everything was for real. And Patrushev hoped that his officers will
manage… that his officers would get away clean and the whole thing would be presented
as… I mean… as a success and a prevention of an act of terrorism. By the way, Rushailo,
the Minister of Internal Affairs before Patrushev claimed it had been an exercise
announced that it had been a successfully prevented act of terrorism. 37:00:00
37:00:04 Now… what does completely overthrow the story about an exercise? Firstly, an
exercise is always announced beforehand, because it’s an exercise. You can’t have an
exercise… you can’t train people so they don’t know they’re being trained. Well, what is a
training exercise for? To train, right? But if you’re training somebody you must tell him
“I’m training you.” The fact that such an exercise was to be held in Ryazan was known
neither to the inhabitants of the house, who, by the way, couldn’t be trained without their
prior accord, it’s a crime to experiment with people without their permission. They’re
civilians, they’re not Patrushev’s subordinates. They’re taxpayers. It’s Patrushev who has
to report to them, not they to him. 37:46:18
37:46:22 So, an exercise is announced well beforehand. The people in the house didn’t
know, the local police didn’t know, the FSB, the local authorities, the ambulance, the
attorney general’s office nobody knew. So if an exercise… if it was an exercise… they’re
announced beforehand, the public is drawn in, civil defence services are involved, there
are special documents prepared and among those involved… I mean the units that
provide… the ambulance, medical units, I mean… 38:21:00
38:21:04 And an exercise should be held… with the inhabitants of one house, with their
permission, but also people living in other houses must be involved because what does it
mean? We trained one house what about the rest? Why did we choose this particular
group? 38:34:10
38:34:14 Now, the second fact, a very important one. There will be no exercises held
with bombs already going off. Well, imagine, a war is starting… well, right now there’s a
war starting in Iraq… And imagine that the USA right now are launching an exercise I
mean removing troops from the frontline and training them at leisure… Funny, isn’t it?
38:54:00
38:54:04 Now… A very, very important fact is that to lodge the explosive device the
officers of the FSB used a stolen vehicle. I mean… I mean… stealing a car is a criminal
offence. The Law on the Federal Security Service spells it out quite clearly: under no
circumstances can the FSB officers commit crimes. Any crimes. I mean… why did they
use that stolen car? 39:25:00
39:25:12 Well… I don’t know… Perhaps they were being trained… really, if we believe
what Patrushev said, perhaps they were also taught how to steal cars… I don’t know what
do they need it for I served there for 20 years and I never had to steal a car… It’s not
necessary, not for policemen… in any country, in a normal, civilised country an officer of
the secret service doesn’t have to know how to steal things. It is not part of his duties. It
doesn’t protect the security of the state I mean, stealing cars or whatever. 39:57:04
39:57:08 Well, therefore why did they steal that car? Because that car was the only thing
that could link those people the FSB officers that inserted that bomb with the
explosion itself. If Kartofelnikov didn’t notice them, it would have happened. After the
explosion… After the explosion happened there could have been witnesses who noticed a
car standing there I mean, those who survived… well, and they could have traced the car
to its owner and come to those who had set that bomb. That’s why they took a stolen car,
so that later when the owner is found there’d once again be a report… they always report
to us that “Well, we found the car on which the crime had been committed. The owner is
apprehended. Bu the car… The owner reported that the car had been stolen two days ago.
40:44:12
40:44:16 Well that was the scheme they acted upon. Well, therefore I can tell you that
we have proof mind you, in any court, I have no doubt that any jury would conclude
that what happened in Ryazan was not an act of terrorism… oh, no, that what happened in
Ryazan was not a training exercise but an attempt to commit an act of terrorism.
According to the law of the Russian Federation an attempt to commit an act of terrorism
is a completed criminal act and it carries the same responsibility as a real crime.
41:18:08
41:18:12 I mean, imagine that a man wants to kill you and shoots at you with a rifle from
the roof. And the bullet narrowly misses your heart and you stay alive not because he
took pity on you and abandoned that crime but because the bullet passed in 2 cm from
your heart. So it’s an attempt to murder you and it carries the same penalty as murder.
The consequences are milder of course; the consequences are a bit milder. 41:42:31
41:43:00 Though in our case there were some consequences because people were
disturbed and that could be taken into… and that… that… and that is naturally considered
to be the consequences… the consequences of a crime. 41:56:00
42:07:12 Well, well I’ll tell you this: I’ve met Kovalev; he made a very good impression
on me. I want to say that he is an honest and decent man, a real citizen of his country, a
man of conscience. But I’m sure 100% that Kovalev will do everything he can so that the
people who voted for him and he’s a member of the Duma learn the truth… But it
seems to me that he will never manage to make sure that those people who blew those
houses up that’s Patrushev, Putin and their close associates that those people answer
for that deed. 42:53:10
42:53:14 Well… I think those people can be called to account for the crimes they’ve
committed only after the political regime in our country is changed. I’d like to add that
the only argument the government offers as their justification is that the FSB didn’t not
blow up those houses… They’re told “Here, I have proof that you blew up those houses.
What can you say?” They give only one answer “We didn’t blow up those houses
because we can’t, because the officers of the FSB can’t blow up their fellow citizens.”
That’s it. That’s it. They don’t say anything else that makes sense. 43:31:04
43:31:08 But I tell you, if we look at the history of the State Security Committee there’s
no one but them there to do it. Read the documents that Bukovsky managed to get they
were deeply involved in terrorism, they trained Irish terrorists, they trained Palestinian
terrorists, they trained terrorists for Latin America. They supplied weapons to Palestinian
terrorists for their terrorist activities. I have a real document, a topsecret document
signed by Andropov. 43:58:00
43:59:20 More… Who in 1994 before the first Chechen war blew up a rail bridge, tried to
blow up a bridge and died there Captain Shenkov, an FSB agent who’s been working
with Lozovsky, who is also an FSB agent. Who blew up a bus and was convicted for
that? 1994, a bus blew up at the VDNH metro station. The explosion happened a couple
of minutes after it stopped and the passengers had time to get out. If the explosion
happened two minutes earlier there would have been not just one victim the driver I
think half of the bus would have ended up as mincemeat, they would have died…
44:36:16
44:36:20 That bus was blown up by lieutenant colonel Vorobiov who was an FSB agent.
And at Vorobiov’s trial the FSB gave him a positive character reference as a valuable
agent who had displayed valour and fortitude while defending the state security… the
interests of the Russian state… And the FSB asked to give him a milder sentence for an
act of terrorism, for blowing up a bus… Look the FSB confirms that Vorobiov is their
agent and asks to mitigate his sentence for an act of terrorism. And do you know how
much Vorobiov got? Three years for blowing up a bus. 45:13:00
45:13:14 They gave me three and a half for speaking about those things and Vorobiov
who’d blown up a bus got three years. Because he’s their agent. So the FSB already… if
you consider this fact of a bus blown up, one bus before the first Chechen war… it
already can be can be defined, according to the laws of the Russian Federation, as a
terrorist organisation because the Antiterrorist law has it straight and clear: if an
organisation had committed even one terr… To be precise… an organisation is defined as a
terrorist organisation if it commits a single act of terror its leadership is aware of.
45:47:12
45:47:18 So what we have is… we have Vorobiov, a lieutenant colonel who had
committed an act of terrorism, that act of terrorism had been committed with his
superiors’ full knowledge because one of the FSB’s top people gave him a positive
character reference for his trial and asked for his sentence to be… So he knows that
Vorobiov is a terrorist and he speaks on behalf of that terrorist. 46:06:12
46:07:12 So what we get is… that even this single incident with Vorobiov gives us
grounds enough to qualify the FSB as a terrorist organisation and dismantle it. And all
the people serving in it can be defined as people who served in a terrorist organisation,
including Mr Putin who is currently occupying a place of the President of the Russian
Federation. I mean, according to the laws of the Russian Federation, Putin was a head of
a terrorist organisation. And now that man is signing antiterrorist treaties with all the
civilised states. 46:40:16
46:40:20 Tomorrow Russia’s political regime will change. It will… It will change sooner
or later. And those decent honest people who take power will label that organisation a
terrorist one as the KGB had been labelled a terrorist organisation. And I’d like to see the
leaders of those countries who’d signed those antiterrorist treaties with Putin how will
they be viewed by their fellow citizens, by their taxpayers when they are told
“Gentlemen, who are your allies in the fight against terrorism? Terrorists?” 47:09:08
47:09:12 And it will be found out that they still maintain contacts with the terrorists in the
Middle East, and with the terrorist active in other regions. And, excuse me, right now,
today they said on TV that Saddam Hussein had allegedly used chemical weapons…
Where did he get those chemical weapons from? Everybody knows by now that those
chemical weapons came from Russia. And I tell you, when this war begins new T72
tanks will be used, with the date of manufacture that’s after 2001. And new Russian
weapons that were provided in Putin’s time.47:44:00
47:45:00 You see? That’s what we’re speaking about. That in Russia… And when I’m
told, “They couldn’t have done it.” who else is there? Who blew up that bus? Who
engaged in terrorism in the KGB times? I beg your pardon, Andropov was a terrorist.
I’ve seen documents signed by him where he gave weapons to terrorists for their terrorist
activities. Haddad, there was a man called Haddad. That was the head of the external
operations section of the Palestinian Liberation Front. A terrorist known all over the
world. That terrorist was part of the KGB network.48:20:00
48:20:04 And I have a document where Andropov reports that that terrorist had been
issued weapons for committing acts of terrorism against… including the citizens of Great
Britain, the USA, Israel and other developed countries, capitalist countries as they were
then called. 48:35:04
48:35:08 So what? Doesn’t Putin know about that? We do know and he doesn’t? Those
documents hang on websites. On the Internet. He fights against terrorism, doesn’t he? So
Putin gives to the er… terrorist Andropov, he with his own hands puts a memorial board
for him at the Lubyanka. So he sends a message to everybody “Folks, we keep going on
with this.” In 1994, the acts of terrorism… that’s the FSB, 1995, 1996 bombs go off in
Moscow, explosions in the metro… nobody’s been found. They’ve even stopped
searching by now. 49:08:14
49:08:18 Then… houses blowing up before the second Chechen war. If you please, they
were caught in Ryazan redhanded. It’s a terrorist organisation, and besides… beside…
apart from… and actually apart from terrorism there’s nothing they can do, they have no
other skills. I’ve got facts, they kill people. And I’ll tell you; they’ll continue to engage in
terrorism just as they’ve done before. And there’ll be more acts of terrorism committed in
Russia. NordOst is not the end of it, there’ll be more. 49:39:06
49:39:10 And the only difference between the KGB and the FSB is that the KGB was the
more powerful of the two, as the USSR used to be a more powerful country that had more
weapons and more money than Russia currently has. They just don’t have enough money
to engage in terrorism on the scale the KGB used to do that. So if they had a bit more
strength to them they’d be engaging in terrorism on the same scale the State Security
Committee used to. 50:08:21
50:09:00 I mean, I mean, take a look. The Soviet Union fell apart, the KGB was gone
and so was the terrorism in the South America. Because that was too far away and there
was no need. It stopped immediately. In 1996… Up until 1996 our place… I mean, I
mean… the atmosphere in the FSB had been as follows that at any moment we could be
closed and dismantled the world was quiet. After 1996 they started strengthening their
positions yet again, yet again we had former 5th Directorate people in power… 50:39:18
50:39:22 I’ll tell you, the dissidents… for example Bukovsky Vladimir Konstantinovich,
1996 was when he was refused a visa for the first time, 199596… And starting with 1996
look what starts again in the Middle East. So once again they rise to their full height,
rebuild their strength, they restore their network and it all starts all over again. 50:59:00
50:59:04 And it will be happening over and over until that organisation is recognised as
what it is. I mean, as a terrorist organisation, as an organisation that had first and
foremost killed 40 million Russian citizens, Soviet citizens, the organisation that has to
recognise and condemn the crimes they’ve committed in the 20th century. And until such
a judgement is passed, until there is a public trial, until the former KGB officers feel the
same shame as the former officers of the Fascist Gestapo or SS until they’re ashamed to
admit where they served, until all this is done terrorism won’t stop. 51:40:21
51:41:00 They’ll just keep changing names, they’ll keep reorganising, they’ll continue
using… I mean, to move their sections apart or to draw them together. And… really…
everything they did before they’ll just keep on doing it. Mark my words. 52:00:00
52:15:00 All right, about the NordOst. Any… I don’t want to throw around empty
accusations, I go by the facts. However… I’ll name you, I’ll give you some facts.
NordOst. Any crime that happens any professional investigator will tell you, any
policeman, any secret service officer in any country they always look first into who
benefits from it, into the motive. And then check it against the time and location of the
crime, and location. All right, I’ll tell you, the situation was as follows. 52:43:16
52:43:20 That thing with NordOst happened exactly at the moment when Zakaev and the
Chechens started gaining recognition in Europe. People started meeting with them. I
mean, before the NordOst, I’d like to remind you, there’d been a meeting between
Zakaev and Mrs del Ponte, that’s the prosecutor on the Yugoslavian criminal case, that
had frightened the Kremlin a lot. I mean, Zakaev started to be listened to at the
Europarlament and people started to look at the Chechen problem with slightly different
eyes. 53:13:21
53:14:00 And I mean, immediately after that, when Zakaev was conducting a series of
meetings in Europe, right after… a Chechen Congress had been successfully, I’d say
held in Denmark… It had attracted the world’s er… attention, and er… the attention of the
people within Chechnya itself. The Chechen people were invigorated, they realised that
the world remembered them and knew what was happening to them. 53:44:00
53:44:12 Then the NordOst happened. And first and foremost it was a major blow to the
international reputation of the Chechens Zakaev, Mashadov… the latter, I say, is a
legitimate president, he was elected legally and Yeltsin signed a treaty with him as with a
subject of the international law, signed a peace treaty. You can only sign a peace treaty
with a neighbouring state. Yeltsin signed a peace treaty with Mashadov so… and
Mashadov was elected in the presence of the international observers. 54:18:00
54:18:04 So everybody understood… I mean, the Chechens started building up… er… er.. I
mean, Zakaev and Mashadov started building international relations, including… all over
the world. And so… in order to turn the world public opinion against the Chechens… that
NordOst incident happens that brought the Chechens nothing, nothing, they reaped no
dividends from it. So who benefited from it only those who fought against Mashadov.
54:48:06
54:48:10 Mashadov didn’t need that NordOst thing and neither did Zakaev. Naturally,
those people aren’t stupid and they must have understood that if they organised that
what would the consequences be, firstly, personally for them, for the ideas they had been
promoting and for their people, their state. 55:07:21
55:08:00 The second aspect… Now the purely technical side… I’m going to leave the
politics aside, it’s a purely technical side of it. What are those aspects? Question number
one: I’ll tell you that in Russia there’s a system currently in operation… I mean, there are
lots of various lawenforcement organisations, secret services, the FSB, then the FAPSI,
the tax police, the police proper and in all of them there are operatives that have their
sources. So all of Russian society is riddled with informers. 55:40:10
55:41:00 And I tell you, the FSB alone has about 100000 clandestine informers, that’s
informers only, that’s not counting the trustees, those who maintain safe houses and other
er… undeclared sources of information. And that’s just the FSB. I’m not counting the
officers, it’s just the clandestine informers, clandestine agents who comprise that 100000.
That’s not counting the officers proper who have rank and go to work every day. The
same thing is going on in the police, the tax police and other organisations. 56:10:16
56:10:20 I mean, with this system in operation in Moscow, especially now with that spy
craze about the people from Caucasus going on… I tell you, under no circumstances could
50 Caucasus people get together with weapons in their arms and cross Moscow
undetected in their camouflage uniforms. So it’s as if… As… as comparison.., it’s as if
Bin Laden gathered 30 Afghan fighters, came to Washington, went through the city
carrying their arms and took some building by force. Can you imagine Bin Laden,
armed, driving through Moscow? 56:43:21
56:44:00 So Arbi… that Movsar Baraev was a familiar name to the law enforcement
agencies. If when those houses were blown up the head of the regional operative
directorate, Mironov, made a statement that they couldn’t prevent those explosions
because those people had never been in our field of vision… well, Movsar Baraev… the
photo of Movsar Baraev had been issued to every Russian policeman on the beat. Every
single one of them had a photo of Movsar Baraev, terrorist, and there was a warrant out
for Movsar Baraev. 57:13:12
57:13:16 And it’s not an accident that two weeks before those events Movsar Baraev had
been removed form the “wanted” list. It was declared that he had been killed. They
probably were afraid that some sergeant would arrest him somewhere in the street and
take him to the police station. And then they’d have had to sort out that mess on one
hand he’d been dead and on the other he was apparently alive. So under no circumstances
barring help from the secret service or other lawenforcement agencies could have 50
Chechens gather in Moscow, arm themselves and take over a building. That’s one.
57:42:14
57:42:18 The second thing is… I… naturally, many people who live in Moscow think…
Well, the second fact that’s very important: after it was taken over… that building of the…
that theatre… all those people, many of them were poisoned with that gas, that was also
illegal, by the way. I mean, those terrorists who took those people hostage weren’t
arrested, they all were killed. Mind you, none of them, and that’s understandable, had
offered any resistance. They were killed in their sleep, especially the women. 58:24:16
58:24:20 That… no law, no Russian law, no law, under no circumstances allows that,
under no circumstances does it allow to kill somebody who is offering no resistance. I
mean, anybody. If a man offers no resistance you cannot use weapons against him.
Weapons are used only… only to prevent resistance or during an escape attempt.
58:54:00
59:01:00 Ah, there were no precedents, none. Either a man had to offer resistance,
adequate armed resistance, or he had to be running away… for us… so we had to stop him
and arrest him. But once again, it had to be a matter of emergency when the escape
happens at night or in the forest, you understand me, right? Or if it’s in the city and you
understand that in a moment he’d be gone, lost in the crowd… only then. And even then
before using a weapon in daytime several shots are made in the air, shots are fired in the
air, a warning is given “Stop, or I’ll shoot!” and only after that you use a weapon if you
can do so without harming bystanders. 59:39:16
59:39:20 And they tell us that they were all set with explosives so they had to shoot them.
I beg your pardon, what about detonating it with a shot? A shot could detonate it and
cause an explosion. I mean, shooting them is more dangerous than simply arresting
them. They slept. They should have been divested of explosives. They should have
been handcuffed while asleep, cleared of explosives and arrested. It was safer than
shooting them and risking a shot detonate a bomb. That detonation was far more likely to
cause an explosion. 01:00:07:00
01:00:07:04 They were shot. Why were they shot? Because somebody found their
evidence uncomfortable. Because they would have told who had supplied them, where
they had stayed, who had taken them to the NordOst, who had armed them, how they
had met in Moscow. And naturally the ears of the secret service would have stuck out.
That’s why they were killed. Because they… when they were killed, they weren’t killed as
terrorists, I’m telling you, the FSB killed them as witnesses. 01:00:33:21
01:00:34:00 I mean the FSB killed them as witnesses… as those who witnessed
something others must not know about. 01:00:43:04
01:00:44:00 Now, let’s continue, we got interested in that topic…
END OF TAPE 2 / INTERVIEW ALEXANDER LITVINENKO
TAPE 3 / INTERVIEW ALEXANDER LITVINENKO
00:00:12:08 Well… Well… I mean, we looked into that matter even more
thoroughly, because there were the signs that… as it’s said, as Russians
say, the situation didn’t look completely clean. And we learned the
following… so… a colleague of mine, Mikhail Ivanovich Trepashkin, in
199596 got a lead to a group of Chechens, that by the way he told me
about it today, I recorded the story, I have an audio tape…00:47:00
00:47:04 that was located at the “Salut” hotel, the “Salut” hotel at
Vernadsky parade is a hotel that belongs to the MVD, the ministry of
Internal Affairs. So, the manager of the hotel was a Chechen and around him
a group of Chechens gathered that carried arms, sold drugs, killed people
and also sent weapons to Chechnya illegally. 01:11:12
01:11:16 The connections… I mean, he deputy of that hotel manager, the
Chechen. I have his surname somewhere, was a former KGB general, I have his
surname as well… I mean, besides, they had connections with the officers
of the Search and Operations Directorate, the former head of the
Directorate, Kuznetsov. Well, with one officer of the General Staff, a
general from the General Staff… and they also had connections with one
colonel from the General Staff. 01:37:06
01:37:10 Trepashkin conducts an operation and arrests some of them. There
was a Novikov Visrudi… (checked) Well, Novikov is released from custody,
Trepashkin is sacked from the service. They give an order… Though he
sends the materials on that group to the MVD, to the internal security
directorate of the FSB, to the Presidential security service because they
sit armed on the route the President takes and also to the Economical
CounterIntelligence Directorate of the FSB. But nobody would touch those
Chechens. That manager is still a manager. Well… And the people from
that group are still active and Misha got sacked. 02:16:04
02:16:08 The only thing… there was a man there called as he said
“Abdul the Bloody”, because it was established that he took part in the
military action in the First Chechen War and tortured soldiers he killed
them, he cut soldier’s throats, cut their heads off… So that Abdul the
Bloody whom Misha had staked was part of that group. So Abdul the Bloody
left Russia, left Moscow, he was advised to leave because the
lawenforcement agencies got interested in him… Well, and Misha was
sacked on the orders from Barsukov Mikhail Ivanovich. 02:44:10
02:44:14 By the way, he went to court claiming he’d been dismissed
illegally and won the case. The court agreed that he… that they’d
dismissed him illegally and Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, the FSB Director
at the time, did not follow the decision of the court through and that,
by the way, is a criminal offence, as far as Russian legislation is
concerned, disobeying the verdict of the court. And I think, it is so not
only in Russia. In any civilised country disobeying a court decision is a
crime. 03:07:08
03:07:12 So… Misha was sacked and all the work on that group was
abolished, blocked. While Misha pursued his case an attempt had been made
on his life. That attempt was organised by Major Chernogorov, I have all
his details. The orders came from Patrushev, personally. Major
Chernogorov and several other FSB officers organised an attack on
Trepashkin. But Misha managed to beat them off, he was slightly wounded
but he survived. After that an order to kill Trepashkin was given to our
unit while he was still suing the FSB we refused to do it…03:44:10
03:44:14 Well and right now there is a criminal case against him they
planted 18 cartridges at his place and then fabricated a charge that he had
given away information constituting a state secret. I mean, the
information that belonged to the State Security Committee. That he had
given away the information, a state secret of the Soviet Union. They are
going to bring him to court today in Russia for giving away the secrets of
the country that is gone and of the organisation that no longer
exists. 04:06:00
04:06:04 Well… it seems they’re even going to arrest him on Monday he
called me today. 04:11:18
04:11:22 Let’s go back to that group of Chechens. So, three months before
the NordOst incident that Abdul and Abu Bakar, the members of that
criminal organisation linked to the FSB, appear in Moscow. Misha informs
the FSB. He says, “Look, Abdul is in Moscow.” The FSB knew that Abdul and
his people came to Moscow nobody took any measures. 04:38:21
04:39:00 When the NordOst was taken over, both of them, Abdul and Abu
Bakar showed up at the NordOst. The next… Besides, even before that
they were… the warrant for them went out when the bomb went off next to
the McDonald’s. About a couple of weeks before the NordOst there was an
explosion next to the McDonald’s. So… the investigator on the McDonald’s
case established that it was done by the people Trepashkin had been
investigating in 199596 the people because of whom he got sacked. 05:08:00
05:09:00 And it was established that those people had been present in the
NordOst. Well, then an investigator from the attorney general’s office
called Misha and said, “Mikhail Ivanovich, could you please…” He’s a
lawyer nowadays, Trepashkin. An investigator from the attorney general’s
office called Trepashkin and said, “Mikhail Ivanovich, could you please
come and identify them. Take a look… You do remember those two Abdul
and Abu Bakar?” “Yes, I do.” “So could you identify them among the
terrorists killed at the NordOst, because they definitely were
there.” Actually Abu Bakar, I think, took part in the negotiations with
Nemtsov. 05:42:14
05:43:12 So when they tried to find Abdul and Abu Bakar among the dead
terrorists they weren’t there. That means that the FSB had let its
agents out. So the FSB agents among the people of Chechen nationality on
the orders from the FSB (I’m sure of that) had organised the whole
thing. And later… those agents were released. And in order to avoid
evidence against them the rest those who weren’t part of a secret service
network and who were used blind…06:10.10
06:10:14 In every secret service there is such a term and any secret
service officer will tell you “to run somebody blind”. A man is run blind
by a secret service. Through their agents they involve him in some affair
and so the man does the secret service’s bidding, but he doesn’t know
that he does the secret service’s bidding, because the agent of the secret
service that gets him enmeshed him in some affair, does not disclose his
connection to a secret service. There’s such a term, any operative of any
country would confirm that. 06:37:10
06:37:14 I mean, those terrorists who were killed they were run blind by
Abdul and Abu Bakar about whom we have information that they are
cooperating with the FSB, with the Federal Security Service of the Russian
Federation. And we have surnames of those with whom they work, their
connections. 06:55:00
06:55:00 So when Misha raised that issue, he was… the FSB stepped up the
operative measures centred at him, his phones were controlled, all his
phones, he was bugged on all sides, he started receiving threats… And on
Monday, today is the 20th, Thursday, so what we have 21, 24, on the 24th
he’s going to be arrested. We have operative information that they want to
place him in detention, to send him to prison. To shut his mouth. So he
won’t be able to tell the people what he knows about the NordOst. That’s
another proof that the FSB… FSB… I mean that this NordOst thing
isn’t… isn’t… as straightforward as we’d like it to be. 07:79:08
07:39:12 And there’s one more interesting fact that I want to tell
you. When Movsar Baraev captured hostages… hostages at the
NordOst… Both Akhmed Zakaev Akhmed told me about it himself, I
think, he’ll confirm that and Maskhadov reacted to the whole affair very
negatively. I mean that neither Maskhadov, nor… nor Zakaev knew anything
about it. 08:02:08
08:02:12 And when it happened they naturally… well… found a way to
contact Movsar or those people who were working with him and told them that
what he’s been doing was pure stupidity, and that it only could… and that
it only could harm the whole cause the thing that Maskhadov and Zakaev
were busy with stopping the war in Chechnya. I mean, the talks began, a
chance for peace appeared… And that thing would only do harm. Instead
of stopping the war it would intensify it. 08:31:08
08:31:12 That was Zakaev’s opinion and Maskhadov’s opinion. Naturally,
they had nothing to do with that act of terrorism. When it happened… I
mean… they condemned it. Publicly, mind you. So… Maskhadov and
Zakaev, either directly, or through gobetweens I can’t tell you for sure
the thing is, they contacted Movsar and ordered him to release the
hostages… “If you are such a… if you want to… to die for your
homeland, let the hostages go, don’t cover yourself with shame, let the
women and children, let everyone go and then fight and die, or surrender
it’s up to you what to do next.” 09:09:00
09:09:12 And they reached an agreement that Movsar would let all the
hostages go. All of them. And he also had to… well… the negotiations
ended on Friday night, but I know that Rybkin, I think, knew about it,
everybody knew, and at the HQ they knew it that the next day Movsar was
going to at 10 a.m., at daybreak he was going to release the
hostages. Why were they afraid to do so at night? So the people wouldn’t
be killed I mean, people start running around at night, they’d get shot
and then they’d be the ones who’d get the blame. 09:37:08
09:37:12 So the journalists were to come on Saturday at 10 a.m. to the
NordOst, at daybreak, and collect all the hostages. The thing is, the FSB
and President Putin were aware of that, and everybody knew quite well that
in a couple of hours the hostages were to be released. So a couple of
hours before the hostages were to be released that crazy takeover began
and 100 people got poisoned as a result, I think that the number of those
poisoned was even higher than that. Well. We don’t have the exact
details, how many are dead, how many will become invalids for life… So
people were killed. 10:13:02
10:13:06 And of course it didn’t happen by accident, because the first
priority of the Russian authorities during that hostage recovery operation
was not saving people but showing to the Chechens all over the world that
they were terrorists. I mean… and the way the NordOst affair began, I
tell you, the main purpose of the NordOst was to present Chechens as
terrorists and to link them to the international drug… to international
terrorism, which is, by the way, not the fact. 10:42:00
10:42:14 I’ve been serving in the FSB until 1999, I’ve been actively
involved in fighting terrorism and I’m telling you that I’ve never heard of
a name like Bin Laden and a group called Al Qaeda. I mean… they started
linking them only after 2001. They started explaining to us that the
Chechens happen to be linked to Al Qaeda and to Bin Laden. I’m sorry, Bin
Laden had been a terrorist since 1998. I mean he’d been blowing things up
and getting famous. The FSB paid him no attention at all. They had no
interest in him. 11:12:18
11:12:22 The FSB only started needing Bin Laden and Al Qaeda so they could
link the Chechens to them and show the world that what Russia did in
Chechnya was not committing military crimes but fighting terrorism. That’s
it… 11:27:10
11:28:08 By the way, the main problem that prevents Putin from ending that
war is that he’s afraid he’s be charged with the crimes committed in the
last three years. I mean… an enormous number of people had been killed
or kidnapped; they’d been put in those holes… I mean I gave a paper in
Czech Republic at a conference on counterterrorism and a Czech journalist
or no… yes a Czech journalist said just like that “I know, I know where
two of those pits are.” When I told about those pits full of dead people
a Czech journalist said, “I know where two of those pits are. Women,
children and old men were killed there. Illegally. They were kidnapped
and murdered.” 12:00:06
12:00:10 So Putin, you understand, will have to answer for this… And,
mind you, they killed several times more people there then had been killed
in Yugoslavia. I mean, what Milosevic had done, Putin had committed more
weigthy and more hienous crimes. They had been committed on his
orders. Putin is more guilty than Milosevic. And Putin understands it
quite well that he could be next in line after Milosevic. 12:22:21
12:23:00 Therefore he has to link the first stage is to link Chechnya to
the international terrorism and the second stage is to try to organise a
civil war there between Chechens. So when the troops withdraw it can all
be blamed on the Chechens. That’s why they’re holding that referendum
now. That’s why Putin lies when he says to the Chechens “You’ll soon be
living on your own. You’ll be left in peace.” He needs… I mean, he need
to get the troops out and organise and interchechen civil war. So all the
crimes could be blamed on it. That’s it. That’s his plan. Everyone with
a shred of common sense understands that. 12:57:12
13:09:00 Well… Of course we have contacts in the FSB that tell us some
things. I’ll tell you, I’ve got the information from two other sources
beside Trepashkin that… that everything that happened in the NordOst,
the terrorists that were killed it all had been set up by the FSB the
information comes directly from the FSB officers… And that they killed
those women while they were asleep in order to be able to remove their
agents to safety. I mean, everything is confirmed. 13:38:08
13:38:12 And when I asked them “Can you declare that openly?” They said
“No.” I said “All right. What if you, let’s say, go out to the West and
we guarantee your safety?” They said, “We’ll be killed. It won’t
work.” So they’re afraid to talk about it. Actually they say, “When the
political regime changes, then we’ll talk. When we can be be sure that our
lives and the lives of our loved ones are out of danger, then we’ll talk
about it.” You see, they really are afraid. 14:01:18
14:01:22 You see, everyone has one term, one life. You can see what’s
happening in the world now. Therefore I think that dealing with an FSB
officer or a policeman presents no problem whatsoever. They just put
them in prison. They fabricate a criminal case just like that. Any
officer of a lawenforcement agency, any investigator, any operative can be
set with a fabricated criminal charge in 20 minutes. 14:24:21
14:25:00 It’s very easily done. Any operative, any investigator had at some
point arrested, locked people up for their crimes. They call that criminal
who’s been convicted and is now in prison… they either go to him, to
prison, or bring him to Moscow through channels. They give him a sheet of
paper and say, “Was it Litvinenko who arrested you?” “Yes.” “When?” “7
years ago.” “On what charge?” “Murder”. “Have you been convicted?”
“Yes.” That’s how it happened to me. They brought some investigator from
the military prosecutor’s office. He was convicted for murder. Well, he’s
been in prison for 8 years. He got 14 years. There’s a court verdict,
everything. It’s all valid. It had all been proven. There is a corpse of
a man he killed, everything. 15:00:21
15:01:00 And they put a sheet of paper for him on the table 8 years later
and say “Write that he had beaten you up when he arrested you. And we’ll
cut your sentence.” He takes that sheet of paper and writes, “Litvinenko
had beaten me up during arrest.” They bring criminal charges against me,
arrest me and put me into prison. That’s it. You can convict any
policeman in any country like this. Give me such legal room, such
opportunity here in England and I’ll get half of the police force
convicted. Any policeman he detains a criminal, the criminal is in
prison, I come to him and say, “Write that that policeman beat you up
during arrest, we’ll let you go and lock him up.” Any criminal, any thief,
any rapist, any repeat offender, any robber, any murderer will always
denounce his investigator or a police officer who arrested him. 15:41:00
15:43:08 That’s the methods they use. That’s it. So how could those
people talk? They purposefully keep the society in fear of them and those
people who keep the society in fear of them they terrorise as well. I
mean, who does put fear into the people the police and the FSB. And
naturally with those people… they are also given to understand “You
live… we give you a chance to do some protection racket…” I mean,
nobody there lives just on the salary alone, of them, I mean. 16:11:08
16:11:12 “We give you…” They keep their salaries low on purpose. If a
man lives on his alary he might start doing his duty so they pay him a
salary one can’t live on, it’s not enough to buy food. So he takes bribes
and moves into protection racket. The authorities do that on purpose. But
after… But if a man opens his mouth and tries to utter even a drop
against his superiors or tries to stand up for any kind of justice, minimal
justice, this man is put in prison in no time. 16:40:10
16:40:14 Because they come to his place “What’s your salary?
$100? Yes? And you have a car, right? So what did you buy it with?”
Because on the salary they pay you you have to go barefoot, you can’t
afford to buy socks. The authorities do that on purpose. 16:56:00
23:49:20 To recruit people, to recruit people they’re using the Interpol
now. They reestablished the policy of recruiting the emigrants, people
from Russia. After 1991 this line had been closed, they restored
it. When they recruit people they involve them in some criminal activity,
because the foreign intelligence service works like an umbrella for the
Russian Mafia here in the West, I have facts. For example, Margelov, he is
now responsible for the entire West, when he was a resident agent in
Switzerland, Margelov, he had meetings with the Swiss Mafiosi at one of the
safe houses in Switzerland. I have a man who can confirm that 24:27:00
24:28:00 If they approach a man, a former citizen of Russia or the Soviet
Union, I mean, if they recruit him, they involve him in some criminal
activity they force him to launder money or sell drugs. If that man
refuses they blackmail him “If you won’t cooperate with us we’ll
fabricate a criminal case against you in Russia, and pass a warrant to the
Interpol. They’ll arrest you in the West and extradite you to us.” That’s
what they do. 25:00:00
25:00:12 So they’re using the Interpol to… to do harm… to breach the
security of the people in the West, in the USA. That’s what they do. 25:11:12
Sincerely yours,
Elena